Jump to content


Photo

Cardinal George Pell: Humans Descended From Apes, Atheists Will Not Go To Hell ...

Adam and Eve mythological account

77 replies to this topic

#1 sarib

sarib
  • Members
  • 1,143 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:15 PM

Cardinal George Pell, Archbishop of Sydney who is also a very senior ecclesiastical official of the Catholic church, was on TV debating with the misguided militant atheist, Prof. Richard Dawkins.

I personally find both men seriously misguided and devious, but I must admit I am really really surprised by the contradictory statements Cardinal Pell has made in response to some issues and questions (1 hour live debate) raised by the audience and the host of the show.

With such politically correct statements coming from one of the highest and influential authorities of the Catholic Church, it is no wonder why Western Christianity had lost its soul, moral and religious stand in the West; and is now desperately appeasing to all these militant atheists, secularists and disillusioned ex-Judeo-Christian faithfulls with its sugercoating-Christianity .

Please ABC, next time you bring in a celebrity atheist for a debate with people of teh book, invite a seasoned Muslim or Jewish intellectual theologian who could have easily filled the shocking void that Cardinal Pell has created on QA on the Easter Monday.


Posted Image


April 9, 2012

Q&A, ABC TV
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/


VALUES OF ATHEISM AND FAITH

IS RELIGION A FORCE FOR GOOD

VALUES OF “SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST”?

BIG BANG FROM NOTHING

DAWKINS – ATHEIST OR AGNOSTIC?

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I DIE?

EVOLUTION AND THE CHURCH

CHILDREN AND “NO GOD”

SUFFERING


TONY JONES: Sorry, can I just bring you, in a sense, to the point of the question? Do you accept that humans evolved from apes?

GEORGE PELL: Yeah, probably. From Neanderthals, yes. Whether...

RICHARD DAWKINS: From Neanderthals?

GEORGE PELL: Probably.

RICHARD DAWKINS: Why from Neanderthals?

GEORGE PELL: Well, who else would you suggest?

RICHARD DAWKINS: Neanderthals were our cousins. We’re not descended from them and we’re both descended from...

GEORGE PELL: These are extant cousins? Where will I find a Neanderthal today if they're my cousins?

RICHARD DAWKINS: They’re not extant, they’re extinct.

GEORGE PELL: Exactly. That’s my point.

RICHARD DAWKINS: Your point is that because they're extant they can't be our cousins.

GEORGE PELL: I really am not much fussed.

RICHARD DAWKINS: That’s very clear.

GEORGE PELL: Something in the evolutionary story seems to have come before humans. A lot of people say it’s the Neanderthal.

TONY JONES: But can we say this: humans - you accept that humans evolved from non humans so let me put this to you as a question: at what point in this evolutionary scale was a soul imparted to the humans from God?

GEORGE PELL: Look, a soul is not like putting a spot of gin in a tonic. The soul is the principle of life. So whenever there was a principle of life that could question, that could be open to awe, that was able to communicate then we had the first human. Now, we believe that the first humans developed in South Africa. I’m not quite sure how long ago and that all, you know, humans have developed from that. We know most about that. There aren't remains. We know most about that because of the drawings they left on the on walls and caves and that sort of thing. No such thing from Neanderthals, so we can't say exactly when there was a first human but we have to say if there are humans there must have been a first one. They might have been equal first but if there is a progression there’s got to be first.

TONY JONES: So are you talking about a kind of Garden of Eden scenario with an actual Adam and Eve?

GEORGE PELL: Well, Adam and Eve are terms - what do they mean: life and earth. It’s like every man. That’s a beautiful, sophisticated, mythological account. It’s not science but it’s there to tell us two or three things. First of all that God created the world and the universe. Secondly, that the key to the whole of universe, the really significant thing, are humans and, thirdly, it is a very sophisticated mythology to try to explain the evil and suffering in the world.

TONY JONES: But it isn’t a literal truth. You shouldn't see it in any way as being an historical or literal truth?

GEORGE PELL: It’s certainly not a scientific truth and it’s a religious story told for religious purposes.

TONY JONES: Just quickly, because the Old Testament in particular is full of these kind of stories, I mean is there a point where you distinguish between metaphor and reality? For example, Moses receiving the Ten Commandments inscribed directly by God on a mountain?

GEORGE PELL: I’m not sure that the Old Testament says that God inscribed the Ten Commandments but leaving that aside it’s difficult to know how exactly that worked but Moses was a great man. There was a great encounter with the divine. Actually, with Moses we get the key that enables us to come together with the Greeks with reason because Moses said who will I tell the Egyptians and he tell that my name is "I am who I am".

TONY JONES: Okay, I’m just going to...

GEORGE PELL: And we’ll come back to that.

TONY JONES: I’m just going to bring Richard Dawkins back in here because we’ve moved from evolution obviously to the biblical versions of it. Your response.

RICHARD DAWKINS: Well, I’m curious to know if Adam and Eve never existed where did original sin come from? But I also would like to clarify the point about whether there was ever a first human. That’s a rather difficult and puzzling question because we know that the previous species from which we're descended is probably homo erectus and before that some sort of australopithecine but there never was a last homo erectus who gave birth to the first homo sapiens. Every creature ever born belonged to the same species as its parents. The process of evolution is so gradual that you can never say, aha, now suddenly we have the first human. It was always a case of just a slightly different from the previous generation. That’s a scientific point which I think is quite interesting. I’m not sure if it has a theological significance except that I think successive popes have tried to suggest that the soul did indeed get added, rather like gin to tonic, at some particular point during evolution; at some point in evolution there was no soul and then later there was one so it is quite an interesting question to ask. Now we have rather a good fossil record from Africa of the descent of humans from australopithecines to various species of homo, perhaps homo habilis, perhaps homo erectus, then archaic homo sapiens and then modern homo sapiens. At what point did the soul get injected and what does the idea of original sin mean if Adam and Eve never existed?

TONY JONES: I’ll just quickly let you respond to that, George?

GEORGE PELL: Yeah, well, I mean God wasn't running around giving injections and if there is no first person we’re not humans.




TONY JONES: Can I just interrupt you just to bring you to point of the question, which was really about whether atheists can lead a good life and be good people and socially responsible and so on.

GEORGE PELL: Yeah, absolutely.

TONY JONES: You accept that?

GEORGE PELL: Yeah, absolutely. I think it helps to believe in God because - there’s a Polish poet, Milosh, who says that the opium of the people today is the belief that they won't be judged by God when they die, those who have committed great crimes, done awful things are going to get away with it and that the people who have suffered unjustly, had terrible lives, that’s it.



MATTHEW THOMPSON: I am an atheist. What do you think will happen when I die and how do you know?

TONY JONES: George Pell, we’ll start with you? You ought to be an authority on this, I imagine?

GEORGE PELL: Well, I know from the Christian point of view, God loves everybody but every genuine motion towards the truth is a motion towards God and when an atheist dies, like everybody else, they will be judged on the extent to which they have moved towards goodness and truth and beauty but in the Christian view, God loves everyone except those who turn his back turn their back on him through evil acts.

TONY JONES: So atheism is not an evil act?

GEORGE PELL: No, not - well, no, in most cases it’s not.

TONY JONES: So I guess to get to the point of the question, I suppose - I mean he may be having a little wager here but is it possible for an atheist to go to heaven?

GEORGE PELL: Well, it’s not my business.

TONY JONES: You’re the only authority we have here.

GEORGE PELL: I would say certainly.

TONY JONES: Yeah.

GEORGE PELL: Certainly.


http://www.abc.net.a....htm#transcript


Do Christians think he is right; or does the Archbishop misrepresent the core mainstream Christian teachings?
  • 0
http://www.bdsmovement.net
< International Campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions against RACIST, FASCIST and TERRORIST Israeli-Zionism>

"Zionism contradicts Judaism" (Rabbi Dovid Weiss - Neturei Karta)

#2 sarib

sarib
  • Members
  • 1,143 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:58 PM

Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

BY: NICOLAS PERPITCH From: The Australian April 10, 2012 12:00AM

AUSTRALIA'S Cardinal George Pell has described the biblical story of Adam and Eve as a sophisticated myth used to explain evil and suffering rather than a scientific truth.

Cardinal Pell last night appeared on the ABC's Q&A program, where he was debating British evolutionary biologist and atheist Richard Dawkins.

Cardinal Pell said humans "probably" evolved from Neanderthals but it was impossible to say exactly when there was a first human. "But we have to say if there are humans, there must have been a first one," he said.

According to Genesis, God created Adam and Eve as the first man and woman.

Asked by journalist Tony Jones if he believed in the existence of an actual Garden of Eden with an Adam and Eve, Cardinal Pell said it was not a matter of science but rather a beautiful mythological account.

"It's a very sophisticated mythology to try to explain the evil and the suffering in the world," he said.

"It's certainly not a scientific truth. And it's a religious story told for religious purposes."

Cardinal Pell argued that the "great atheist movements" of Hitler and Stalin were the personification of social Darwinism.

"It's the struggle for survival, the strong take what they can, and the weak give what they must and there's nothing to restrain them." he said. "And we've seen that in the two great atheist movements of the last century."

Professor Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, rejected the notion as "ridiculous".

He said Stalin was an atheist and Hitler was not, and they each perpetrated their acts for different reasons.

Towards the end of the debate, the head of the Catholic Church in Australia appeared to lament his struggle to promote Christ.

"My life would be much easier if I didn't have to go into bat for . . . Christian principles," he said.

Cardinal Pell then mused that he sometimes wondered if he should regret his life's work, before asserting: "No, no."

http://www.theaustra...f-1226322379822
  • 0
http://www.bdsmovement.net
< International Campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions against RACIST, FASCIST and TERRORIST Israeli-Zionism>

"Zionism contradicts Judaism" (Rabbi Dovid Weiss - Neturei Karta)

#3 Muslim Brother

Muslim Brother
  • Members
  • 331 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:24 PM

Why aren't the Muslims involved in the discussion?
  • 0
Spend some of your free time to Learn Arabic and Experience the Miracle of the Qur'an Firsthand.

#4 roobarb

roobarb

    I am a dude!

  • Members
  • 1,433 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:02 PM

Probably because Christianity is the dominant religion in Australia?
  • 0
I'd almost feel sorry for him if he weren't such a knob - tr3x
roobarb is actually a girls name in Arabic lol hence why I've always thought you were a girl - mango
since you are a worthless and shameless lowlife - FatBoyMuslim

#5 sarib

sarib
  • Members
  • 1,143 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

Also perhaps a convenient local timing for the ABC producers

Global Irrational atheist convention (melbourne) + Easter Monday = sensationalist QA on monday (everyone is happy at ABC except the TRUE believers)

lol

Would have loved to see Dr Timothy Winter vs both Prof. Dawkins and Cardinal Pell, but it wasn't an international media event.


Probably because Christianity is the dominant religion in Australia?


Dominate in dwindling numbers, detrimental to God-fearing conscious ..

Or maybe ABC thinks the purview of the Kingdom of God Almighty centres only the chaotic (Catholic) church.

lol
  • 0
http://www.bdsmovement.net
< International Campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions against RACIST, FASCIST and TERRORIST Israeli-Zionism>

"Zionism contradicts Judaism" (Rabbi Dovid Weiss - Neturei Karta)

#6 sarib

sarib
  • Members
  • 1,143 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

Why aren't the Muslims involved in the discussion?



Good point. But the I am still wondering, how could thoughtful Muslims get themselves actively involved in these discussions when the world media seem to think that the religious world revolves around secularised western Judeo-Christian planet?
  • 0
http://www.bdsmovement.net
< International Campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions against RACIST, FASCIST and TERRORIST Israeli-Zionism>

"Zionism contradicts Judaism" (Rabbi Dovid Weiss - Neturei Karta)

#7 roobarb

roobarb

    I am a dude!

  • Members
  • 1,433 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:27 AM

In Australia, Christianity is the dominant religion at 62ish%. Whether or not it's going up or down, Catholicism it is still the largest denomination at roughly 25%. Islam is somewhere around the 2% mark and Judaism maybe 0.5%.
No offence sarib, but you seem to be reading way too much into why there wasn't a Muslim on there.
  • 0
I'd almost feel sorry for him if he weren't such a knob - tr3x
roobarb is actually a girls name in Arabic lol hence why I've always thought you were a girl - mango
since you are a worthless and shameless lowlife - FatBoyMuslim

#8 furry_animal

furry_animal
  • Members
  • 1,069 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:07 AM

Also perhaps a convenient local timing for the ABC producers Global Irrational atheist convention (melbourne) + Easter Monday = sensationalist QA on monday (everyone is happy at ABC except the TRUE believers) lol Would have loved to see Dr Timothy Winter vs both Prof. Dawkins and Cardinal Pell, but it wasn't an international media event. Dominate in dwindling numbers, detrimental to God-fearing conscious .. Or maybe ABC thinks the purview of the Kingdom of God Almighty centres only the chaotic (Catholic) church. lol


Oh, come on. This is the leftist ABC were are talking about.

Having someone debate the existence of God with the leader of a Christian church on the holiest day of that religion?

Alright, go right ahead!

Have Gert Wilders debate the Mufi of Australia on the last day of Ramadan or whatever...

R u nuts?

ABC is anti-christian, pro-atheist and pro-diversity (=islam) central. That trichotomy is gonna fall apart.
  • 0

#9 sarib

sarib
  • Members
  • 1,143 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:14 PM

.

In Australia, Christianity is the dominant religion at 62ish%. Whether or not it's going up or down, Catholicism it is still the largest denomination at roughly 25%. Islam is somewhere around the 2% mark and Judaism maybe 0.5%.
No offence sarib, but you seem to be reading way too much into why there wasn't a Muslim on there.


lol

Did you actually comprehend my posts # 5 and 6?

Maybe you should re read them before you hand me your non offensive and irrelevant advice

Oh, come on. This is the leftist ABC were are talking about. Having someone debate the existence of God with the leader of a Christian church on the holiest day of that religion? Alright, go right ahead! Have Gert Wilders debate the Mufi of Australia on the last day of Ramadan or whatever... R u nuts? ABC is anti-christian, pro-atheist and pro-diversity (=islam) central. That trichotomy is gonna fall apart.


wow .. is it some kind of new furious illogical allegations , or do you have anything substantiated and well founded proofs based on logic?
  • 0
http://www.bdsmovement.net
< International Campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions against RACIST, FASCIST and TERRORIST Israeli-Zionism>

"Zionism contradicts Judaism" (Rabbi Dovid Weiss - Neturei Karta)

#10 koalaboi

koalaboi
  • Members
  • 681 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:18 PM

Oh, come on. This is the leftist ABC were are talking about. Having someone debate the existence of God with the leader of a Christian church on the holiest day of that religion? Alright, go right ahead! Have Gert Wilders debate the Mufi of Australia on the last day of Ramadan or whatever... R u nuts? ABC is anti-christian, pro-atheist and pro-diversity (=islam) central. That trichotomy is gonna fall apart.


To say the ABC is anti christian cannot be substantiated:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/

Kb
  • 0

#11 fatma

fatma
  • Members
  • 4,401 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:08 PM

yes but they are definitely anti-Pell KB and that article from The Australian above is also distorting what was said. I don't particularly like Cardinal Pell however next to Richard Dawkins he looked positively charismatic. Richard Dawkins takes himself so so seriously, and has had a sense of humour bypass. I hated the way he kept being condescending and had no respect for another point of view. I loved how he got upset when he thought the audience was laughing at him and then he accused Tony Jones of having a biased audience!

With such politically correct statements coming from one of the highest and influential authorities of the Catholic Church, it is no wonder why Western Christianity had lost its soul, moral and religious stand in the West; and is now desperately appeasing to all these militant atheists, secularists and disillusioned ex-Judeo-Christian faithfulls with its sugercoating-Christianity .


there was nothing politically correct about what he said at all. If he was into appeasement he'd be backing *** marriage wouldn't you think? Just because the Catholic Church allows theologians to interpret teachings doesn't mean they are watering it down and sugarcoating it. This is a fundamental difference from Islam however you can't simply claim that it has lost it's power because of this difference. I am more inclined to think that it's waning influence is caused by capitalism, globalization, the dichotomous thinking that has developed between science and religion, the rise of secularism and I'm sure the list goes on.

Anyway Cardinal Pell doesn't misrepresent the core of Christian teachings at all. There is diversity of interpretation from literal to metaphorical. The catholic church has a long tradition of metaphysics that involves different levels of interpretation and sophistication. Therefore beliefs can be on any level. Kids get taught about Adam and Eve but adults might see it as a metaphor. (I didn't hear him say it was a myth). Both are valid ways of understanding the idea that there was a first male and female created by God. Hence God could have used evolution to produce these first humans or he could have done it in 7 days.
  • 1

#12 roobarb

roobarb

    I am a dude!

  • Members
  • 1,433 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:58 PM

Read it and understood it sarib.

Answer me this, why would a tv show in australia select a member of a minority religion (in australia) to fulfil the religious side of the debate?


  • 0
I'd almost feel sorry for him if he weren't such a knob - tr3x
roobarb is actually a girls name in Arabic lol hence why I've always thought you were a girl - mango
since you are a worthless and shameless lowlife - FatBoyMuslim

#13 Kostas

Kostas

    Agnostic Greek Australian

  • Members
  • 715 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:26 PM

because they're capable of defending the position perhaps..
  • 0
As an Australian of Greek lineage, with who knows... perhaps some Turkish that nobody in my clan has spoken of [wink].. I wish to examine all, and as a lover of free speech (short of inciting harm to others) I expect the right to critique all as freely as anyone.
Just like Socrates.. but keep your hemlock.
My opinions are my own and not necessarily endorsed by anyone.

ps
Any barcode beginning with 729.... is not a perfect way of telling when a product is from Israel, but it is a good rule of thumb.

#14 Kostas

Kostas

    Agnostic Greek Australian

  • Members
  • 715 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:39 PM

I wouldn't look to the Catholic Church for spiritual or intellectual enlightenment.
A group that bases justification for it's entire existence and papal supremacy on the the [mis]-interpretation of one single line ... Matthew 16:18
  • 1
As an Australian of Greek lineage, with who knows... perhaps some Turkish that nobody in my clan has spoken of [wink].. I wish to examine all, and as a lover of free speech (short of inciting harm to others) I expect the right to critique all as freely as anyone.
Just like Socrates.. but keep your hemlock.
My opinions are my own and not necessarily endorsed by anyone.

ps
Any barcode beginning with 729.... is not a perfect way of telling when a product is from Israel, but it is a good rule of thumb.

#15 Kaleemah

Kaleemah
  • Members
  • 159 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:14 PM

Salaam,

Interesting debate. I fell asleep during (as always)!! I really wanted to watch. I am always interested in hearing what Dawkins has to say. To me, he's just as ignorant and one eyed as an evangelist - he's just for Atheism. I feel sorry for him, really I do. He absolutely down plays and even defends his abuser while he was at an Anglican boarding school, yet he calls for the Pope to be charged and sent to jail for all the child abuse that has ever occurred in the Catholic school. I think Dawkins needs what the western world calls a psycho-analytical cartharsis to work out why he's such a militant atheist yet defends his abuser. May Allah (swt) guide him to find true meaning and a kind purpose in life. Once he can explain WHY evolution happened and what was existent BEFORE.. then I think he can have an argument.

I think they chose Pell because he's a controversial figure in the Christian world. A minority of Christians are Catholics, yet I suppose they represent the most conservative Christian model around, especially Pell. The Catholics are in a conundrum, that's for sure. They don't know whether they are Arthur or Martha! They have dropped Vatican 2 and want to go back to the conservative days, yet they know that to keep the people in the doors they need to 'modernise' (i.e. INNOVATE... again...). Pell wants to remain ultra-conservative (wasn't he in the running for the Pope elections?) but the computer says no... (sorry had to say it).

I would have liked to have seen Brian Houston from Hillsong go up against Dawkins... but then again you aren't even allowed to take a photo of him so it's unlikely he will want to be challenged to a debate on anything.

  • 0
~~Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is a niche wherein is a lamp— the lamp is in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star— lit from a blessed olive tree, neither eastern nor western, whose oil almost lights up, though fire should not touch it. Light upon light. Allah guides to His Light whomever He wishes. Allah draws parables for mankind, and Allah has knowledge of all things.~~ 24:35

#16 Event Horizon

Event Horizon
  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:03 PM

Do Christians think he is right; or does the Archbishop misrepresent the core mainstream Christian teachings?


As a former Christian, (indeed former Catholic), I can assure you that the Cardinal's weaving in and out of 'this bit is meant metaphorically' and 'this bit is meant literally' is pretty representative of the mainstream Christian view from at least midway through the 20th century.

Cheers,

EH
  • 0
... endless forms most beautiful...

#17 Kostas

Kostas

    Agnostic Greek Australian

  • Members
  • 715 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:49 PM

As a former Christian, (indeed former Catholic), I can assure you that the Cardinal's weaving in and out of 'this bit is meant metaphorically' and 'this bit is meant literally' is pretty representative of the mainstream Christian view from at least midway through the 20th century.

Cheers,

EH


I would have thought that if anything, both the "creationist" and the "evolutionist" perspectives would concur on the idea of a "proto-human".

The "good" Cardinal should perhaps stick to the straight forward stuff, fashion himself a whip, and get stuck into some bankers..... or perhaps prepare millstones to hang around the necks of those that offend children. (Matthew 18:6)
  • 0
As an Australian of Greek lineage, with who knows... perhaps some Turkish that nobody in my clan has spoken of [wink].. I wish to examine all, and as a lover of free speech (short of inciting harm to others) I expect the right to critique all as freely as anyone.
Just like Socrates.. but keep your hemlock.
My opinions are my own and not necessarily endorsed by anyone.

ps
Any barcode beginning with 729.... is not a perfect way of telling when a product is from Israel, but it is a good rule of thumb.

#18 Hasaan Moyle

Hasaan Moyle

    Smooth Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,327 posts

Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:01 AM

Another example of DIY exegesis when you're in a corner.
  • 0
MuslimVillage is lots of fun! It can be addictive!

Many of us have made life-long friends here and it has totally transformed the lives of many!

Please, to maximise your enjoyment here, read the Forum Rules, Terms and Conditions.

#19 pepe

pepe
  • Brothers
  • 13,180 posts

Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:43 PM

Another example of DIY exegesis when you're in a corner.

+1

Fatma I respect you and all but that is some seriously weak theology.
  • 0
The Monoculture’s complaint about Islam amounts to only one demand: Be like us!

#20 fatma

fatma
  • Members
  • 4,401 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

Pepe are you telling me that it is a normative Islamic belief that creationism is correct and evolution is wrong? I rather think that fundamentalist christians are rather ridiculous because of their unsophisticated beliefs. I assumed that Islam had different layers like Catholics
  • 0

#21 Event Horizon

Event Horizon
  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:10 PM

I rather think that fundamentalist christians are rather ridiculous because of their unsophisticated beliefs. I assumed that Islam had different layers like Catholics


Now that I've seen the episode in full, I have to concur with the majority opinion here, Cardinal Pell did a really poor job. I was shocked.

He was weak on two fronts.

1. He seemed to know very little about what an atheist Like Professor Dawkins really professes. Instead he seemed to be armed with ideas from a creationist pamphet from the 1950's.

2. He gave a rather poor defense of the metaphysical basis of Catholic beliefs position.

I've seen people who have done 2. rather well, including in debates against the likes of Dawkins and Harris, etc, but this was a shambles.

It didn't help that Tony Jones simply could not stop himself from taking part in the debate himself!

Catholics has never officially taught that the Darwinian account of nature is wrong, though across the world at a regional and diocesan level, there have been many rather silly attacks on evolution up till quite recently. The church now teaces that it has 'no problems' with the Dawinian Natural Selection and the evolution of humans.

However, you could see that the Cradinal was visibly uneasy with this rhetoric, and in my experience this well reflects the position of many catholic clergy and intellectuals today. The Church is well-advised by it's own large contingemnt of in-house scientists and knows that it cannot deny the evidence for evolution. But the 'and then at some point the soul was infused' line always seems rather inelegantly put.

... it is a normative Islamic belief that creationism is correct and evolution is wrong?


From my experience here, yes, that is exactly the position that Muslims seem to take. Particularly when it comes to human evolution.

See this thread:

http://muslimvillage...bout-evolution/

Others may disagree with my assessment.

Cheers,

EH

Edited by Event Horizon, 18 April 2012 - 02:11 PM.

  • 0
... endless forms most beautiful...

#22 tr3x

tr3x
  • Members
  • 3,280 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:06 PM

Interesting to see Atheist groups sponsoring many scientific lectures. Those lectures and lecturers lose credibility because of this especially when they start espousing Atheist propaganda under the guise of "science" as part of their lecture.


  • 0
"I'm not as forgiving toward the muslim community"- Philip, showing his true colors.

#23 Hasaan Moyle

Hasaan Moyle

    Smooth Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,327 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:23 PM

Evolution is fine if we are talking about natural selection, diseases and skin colour etc, but when it is taken to the extreme and used to replace God, insisting that human beings and avocados have a common ancestor, it must be rejected.
  • 0
MuslimVillage is lots of fun! It can be addictive!

Many of us have made life-long friends here and it has totally transformed the lives of many!

Please, to maximise your enjoyment here, read the Forum Rules, Terms and Conditions.

#24 Event Horizon

Event Horizon
  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:58 PM

Evolution is fine if we are talking about natural selection, diseases and skin colour etc, but when it is taken to the extreme and used to replace God, insisting that human beings and avocados have a common ancestor, it must be rejected.


All living thigs have a common ancestor. Viral fossils found in the DNA of living organisms, (particularly a subset of these called endogenous retroviruses or ERVs), show this fact in amazing detail.

The multiple lines of evidence for common ancestry are incontrovertible but none of this says anything at all about replacing God.

Perfectly rational (and competing) schools of thought use this same evidence for a Godless universe and for one created by God.

Cheers,

EH
  • 0
... endless forms most beautiful...

#25 Hasaan Moyle

Hasaan Moyle

    Smooth Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,327 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

The notion that all living things have a common ancestor is a matter of faith. It might as well be a new religion. I reject it as a pseudo-science.
  • 0
MuslimVillage is lots of fun! It can be addictive!

Many of us have made life-long friends here and it has totally transformed the lives of many!

Please, to maximise your enjoyment here, read the Forum Rules, Terms and Conditions.

#26 furry_animal

furry_animal
  • Members
  • 1,069 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:37 PM

Event Horizon,

How does evolution theory deal with the creation of complex structures like eyes, kidneys etc that perform a distinct function? What are the previous incarnations in the evolutionary chain?

FA
  • 0

#27 Event Horizon

Event Horizon
  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:26 AM

The notion that all living things have a common ancestor is a matter of faith.

It might as well be a new religion. I reject it as a pseudo-science.


Can I ask, have you looked into this yourself, or have you accepted the 'matter of faith' explanation after hearing someone else say it or reading it somewhere? Look up viral fossils as a starting point, you'll be amazed.

There are multiple lines of evidence strongly supporting the idea that all of life has a single common ancestor. Each of them makes predictions that are tested each time new species are discovered, and each of them is falsifiable.

Far from it being a new religion, the idea is evidence-based. A single discovery could destroy the ideas that all of life has a common ancestor.

Cheers,

EH
  • 0
... endless forms most beautiful...

#28 Muslim Brother

Muslim Brother
  • Members
  • 331 posts

Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:01 AM

Far from it being a new religion, the idea is evidence-based. A single discovery could destroy the ideas that all of life has a common ancestor.

Cheers,

EH


It's too bad that the science of evolution, conveniently,skips over the big problem of how something came from nothing.
  • 0
Spend some of your free time to Learn Arabic and Experience the Miracle of the Qur'an Firsthand.

#29 Event Horizon

Event Horizon
  • Members
  • 716 posts

Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:21 AM

It's too bad that the science of evolution, conveniently,skips over the big problem of how something came from nothing.


Evolution is only concerned with biological populations. It says nothing about how life was created. It also has nothing to say about the creation of the cosmos, if that's what you mean.

Cheers,

EH
  • 0
... endless forms most beautiful...

#30 Muslim Brother

Muslim Brother
  • Members
  • 331 posts

Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:43 AM

Evolution is only concerned with biological populations. It says nothing about how life was created. It also has nothing to say about the creation of the cosmos, if that's what you mean.

Cheers,

EH


that's my point. The bigger question of how the universe began to exist does not concern the evolutionist. It's very convenient for the atheist to say that another science exists which deals with this issue.

Assuming the universe came from nowhere, in my opinion, is the most unscientific assumption known to man.
  • 0
Spend some of your free time to Learn Arabic and Experience the Miracle of the Qur'an Firsthand.



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users