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Music In Islam


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#31 reemziez

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    life is good :D alhumdulillah

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 08:40 PM

wasalaamz

oh sis thats sooo true!! n thats one of the reasons i decided to quit too. funny... i thought i was the only one that quit for such a reason :P. and also, when i quit it was during ramadhan.. n u know how much spirituality is raised in that blessed month!! i chucked out my entire collection of cd's, and Alhumdulilah, to this day i don't regret it :) the peace u find listening to songs that praise Allah can not be found in today's, as u say, "cool" top 40 junk.

peace n blessingz
ma3asalaamziez
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#32 taqwa

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 08:44 PM

Salams

Ok I aint gonna give any Islamic references, but just give a little personal experience that can easilly be transferred to those funky top 40 sexually explicit Sugar Daddy, M & M, Shania sane?, J-Low, Erotic Avenue, Minogue no1 and Minogue wannabee no. 2 type of songs...

i remember in my musical hey days of listening to the latest songs in da car, while studying, while cooking, etc that it used to interfere in my prayers. How? While i would be reciting the surahs in prayer, my brain is also reciting the songs I was listening to on the radio. A few years ago, I kicked da habit and I am no music distraction free in prayer. 

BUT how quickly that can easily creep back as last week i listened to a song on the radio and a few hours later while I was praying and i found it being repeated in me head and it was JUST ONE SONG! And this was years of barring myself from those latest hip hop, r&b, 'cool' songs.

I found that no matter how many anasheeds I listen to, the English ones, that they never interfered in my prayers...so thats cool...what i did with one song, the Celine Dione Titanic theme song is downloaded it with no words...that way i have no way of constantly reciting those words so it doesnt affect my prayers....

Anyways, would like to hear others experiences....(this is just my own experience and doesnt mean everyone else would/should/has felt or experiences this in the same way)

Peace
Hanan


Could be subliminal messages in those songs!?!? :?
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#33 Myst

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 11:58 PM

For those who have given up music completely (except for the halal Daff), for the sake of Allah:

May Allah grant you Jannat Al Firdous and unite you with those of the past who made sacrifices, who distanced themselves from their whims and the calls of their own nafs - solely for Allah's pleasure. May Allah prepare for you Halal Music in Jannah, music the likes of which no ears have heard and no hearts can ever fathom - for your patience in this life. May Allah allow you to make use of your time in this life. May He allow you to listen to the recitation of the beautiful speech of Allah instead - the Holy Quran - and also, benefical islamic lectures. Indeed the prophet sallahu 3alyhi wassalam praised both - listening to the Quran and seeking islamic knowledge. May Allah accept your deeds and forgive you your sins. Ameen.

For those who listen to music:

May Allah guide you and change you from listening to the instruments and words of Shaytaan to listening to the Quran. Ameen.
As Ibn Al Qayim said, the words of shaytaan and the words of Allah cannot co-exist in the same heart. Should our hearts contain Allah's Words - the verses from the Quran - or the lyrics and the tunes of shaytaan?


With that I ask you all (and myself FIRST) to make use of your time, we are in the Holy 10 days of Dhul Hijjah. There are no other days where deeds are more worthy in the sight of Allah than these 10 days, Allahu akbar! Let's give up the argumentation and pick up the Quran...and not the 2Pac/JLo/Dion/Mozzart CD!
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Posted 08 February 2003 - 01:42 AM

Salams all,




reemziez wrote:

Superficial denfinations?!?! sahi bukhari is the most authentic set of hadiths!


thats not what is meant by superficial definitions. no body questioned the authenticity of sahih bukhari. thats one hadith in the hundreds and thousands of ahadith their are available. out of those hundreds and thousands there are probably hundreds to view when studying the topic of music.
theres the shariah to also take into account and the context of both the type of music and the place and time that they are played in.

to be a scholar in that particular field of islam ( ie music) would mean that you have gone into the depths of studying and understanding music from all angles as well as the shariah viewpoint and ahadith in their context and relevance not to mention your basic requirements of earning the right to be a scholar ( ie years of Quran, hadith, fiqu, shariah etc study).

if you were to base your whole fatwa on 1 hadith you would be laughed at by other scholars since this is not the traditional method of doing so. that is why you will see scholars against music quote numerous ahadith ayat etc all building up to their end fatwa. wether they take the surface meanings of those hadith and disregard the context is their perogative and wether the Pro music scholars dwell much deeper into the ahadith is also their perogative. both have to be respected. but in my books the superficial understanding of hadith is what results in the whole superficial mentality of muslims today.

so chill reems, sahih bukhari is always in my good books, its merely individuals bent on quoting it and then coming to conclusions without taking a deeper and thorough look into a subject that bother me.

and bro/sis, i believe i was just as addicted, if not more, to music as u r now. i studied it for years and was the top student in my class. But in 2001 i threw away all my western pop cd's and never attended a single music lesson after that because i read that artical that i posted earlier. Sometimes for islam u have to make sacrifices. But now, as i said b4, i only listen to nasheeds, and BELIEVE me, if u love music, listen to Yusuf Islam's songs, he knows all about music! he was one of the most successful singers back in the 70s, as Cat Stevens. His islamic songs are so peaceful... he praises Allah and the prophet (saw) in the sweetest tunes. and if u wanna start or keep a career in singing, y not sing about the beauty of Islam? many muslims do it, unfortunately no1 that famous in australia has done it so far. maybe u could be the first? 


lol..... thing is im not addicted. I love it but im not addicted. weve all been through the smashing cd's phase because we heard that music is HARAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMM but im way over it.

you may picture me to be a headphone sporting walkman carrying danicing muso, but far from that i barely listen to it. however..... if i hear something pleasing to the ear im not afraid to listen to it either. i know my comments earlier may have sounded like i sing, dance and listen to eminem all day but far from it my car cds consist of abdul basit, ajami, shatri, sudais etc... got a beautiful dthikr one with nice madayeh and salawat a'la nabi. oh yeh i do have one with cat stevens - the prophets praise or somethign like that but ill never listen to his english ones..... they drive me mad. they sound like nursery rhymes. all the power to the brother though.

that goes for raihan and zain bhika or whatever theyre called too. id rather listen to gypsy kings any day lol...... got you all, just kidding.


hanan..... the only problem i had way back when i cut back on music was that rap crap...... n those waste of sound waves rnb love songs. once they were thrown away i had no problem. i still enjoy listening to flamenco guitar every now and then ( abdul basits voice becomes numbing after a couple of juz') some acid jazz n classical goes down well too ( for me anyways) i have no problem concentrating on prayers though. when im in a bad mood the last thing i want to do is have bad thoughts about anyone or anything while the Quran is playing.... so i wind down with something...... if it happens to be music then so be it and then when im calm i put Quran on.

Too much though have i seen the Quran being used as if it was a music Cd.
it is played and left in the background whilst people talk and chatter. In the muslim male only gym i go to, they play it while people work out. that really bothers the hell out of me. especially when you get a baboon of a guy in there lifting a hell of a lot of weight and him going off his rocker while Quran is playing.

The Prophet peace be upon him told us to remain silent and listen when the Quran is recited, he also told us to Study the Quran, not merely recite it. in my mind studying it is much more beneficial than reciting it without understanding of what your saying.
the other annoying thing is the anasheeds they play in the gym. by now ive heard every jihad nasheed ever recorded. im so sick of them that when i hear them and ive got a heavy weight on top of me the weight collapses and i struggle for air until they switch it off. im no longer moved by it at all. we also have to be careful not to go to extremes and be numbed by the Quran. everything has its place and time.


now heres a peice that was sent by someone i know and they can own up to it if they like. but its a really interesting peice on music.



The art of sound in the world of Islam
The Islamic rules and regulations governing the listening of music are among the most misunderstood in Islam. YUSUF AL-KHABBAZ discusses the issue...
Muslims will often begin inquiries into the art of sound in the world of Islam by asking whether listening to music is haram. The term "haram" has a legal sense and a cultural sense. The cultural sense of the word, the way it is used casually, is closer to the meaning of "shameful". In the legal sense, to be haram requires that something is explicitly forbidden in Qur’an and hadith, with punishments laid down in the shari’ah for infraction. This does not apply to music.
Nor is there any consensus among Muslim scholars. The Qur’an says nothing directly about music, and scholars usually use qiyas (analogy) to extrapolate from other areas. For instance, the Qur’anic term lahw (6:32, 29:64, 31:6, 47:36, 57:20, 62:11) is cited in edicts against music, although this is a broad term that means "diversion" or "entertainment". Similarly, one finds laghw used in some places (23:3, 25:72, 28:55, 52:23), meaning "vain talk" or "false speech". Some music can be seen as mindless diversion or vain talk, but certainly not all. Add to this the variety of opinions in the schools of thought (the Shi’ah, for instance, do not rely on analogy as much) and we have in effect an unresolved question.
The hadith literature is not definitive on music either, and people on both sides of the debate can find narrations to suit their positions. So the Muslims who say that music is haram, as a blanket statement, are not examining all the issues and are imposing a narrow view of Islam. One should take into consideration the sources one uses, the associations between music and other activities, and the terminology itself. Many of the rulings that music is haram do so by association, but they are not condemning music as such, only some types and uses of music. Similarly, the terminology is not consistent. "Music" is actually a very narrow concept, and the word (musiqi in Arabic) did not enter Islamic literature until quite late. If we take music to mean secular sound arts, that leaves a whole array of musical activities that are not secular: things that would be much better termed "sound arts". The supreme sound art of Islam, of course, is recitation of the Qur’an, which can be rendered very artistically, although never with the trappings of "music".
Similarly there are other sounds arts, such as the adhan, eulogies (hamd, na’at, etc.) and recited poetry, that stylistically derive from recitation of the Qur’an. Then there are wedding songs, children’s lullabies, military songs and work songs. After that, if one imagines a continuum of sound phenomena, there is instrumental music, and then finally purely secular songs and singing. So even a cursory survey reveals many sound arts in the Islamic world, that clearly cannot simply be written off as haram. However, there have been many general rulings about music, and several come down cautiously in its favour. One famous one that is often cited was made by Mahmud Shaltut, who was at the time head scholar of al-Azhar. He ruled that music is permissible on four grounds: 1) that Allah created human beings with the ability to appreciate beautiful things, one of which is music, and Muslims can learn to appreciate this beauty without abusing it; 2) that Islam seeks the golden mean, and in an issue like music, with extreme positions for and against, there can be a thoughtful middle ground; 3) that music is permissible in certain circumstances, such as weddings, and so any condemnation has to consider the context, not just the sound itself; 4) that Muslims should avoid recklessly forbidding things that Allah has not clearly forbidden.
Parallel to the debate among Muslim scholars about music, in Muslim societies it flourished in different eras, so it may be useful to consider how this debate influenced the type of music that developed. Scholars, well-intentioned most of the time, have the best interests of the Ummah at heart, and in this controversial issue worked very hard to clarify the matter. This has been going on for centuries, and in part accounts for the framework within which the sound arts developed. In other words, because it was controversial, Muslims took extra care when finding ways to express themselves in sound.
However, it is misleading to take the secularist or missionary position that the debates have somehow "restricted" music and the arts. Rather, as with almost anything in life, people need guidelines, so it is more just to see the debates not as creating restrictions but as constructing a framework within which to create a pathway that one can follow. Muslim artists, eager to express themselves according to their deen, paid attention to the best of these frameworks and pathways. These were guided by the supreme sound art, Qur’anic recitation, which has provided many of the aesthetic parameters for the other sound arts. In this context, the debates have been positive and productive. In fact, it is when they stop, when things solidify, that Muslims get stuck looking for easy answers, seeking halal/haram dichotomies, which, in the case of music and other cultural practices, are less productive than ongoing discussion.
However the legal issues are resolved, it is important to recognize that there is now an onslaught of industrialized music (and other entertainments) on other cultures, and cultural practices, that is unprecedented in human history. This particular kind of entertainment, largely emanating from the Western pop-music factories of Europe and North America, seems to appeal to a broad cross-section of young people. Part of the solution is in education: not the narrow sort one gets from schooling, but in what might be called "cultural education". Too much "cultural education" these days comes from conduits of mass culture on television and the internet. Why young people like to sit transfixed by these devices, instead of being in other kinds of human activities, is perhaps a question for psychologists, but in any case education on the community level is important, and this may involve loosening the sometimes strict and narrow attitudes to music in some quarters.
In other words Muslims may have catalysed the problem by a twofold blunder: making Islam and its cultural functions seem ossified and strict, labelling many things haram and bid’ah; and neglecting the living traditions in their own lives. Television and the net are easy: they are perfect sources for passive consumers. What Muslim societies need is producers: those who can understand and produce various arts and integrate them into community activities. At the moment it is the same story everywhere: cultural gray-out wherever "globalization" appears. Part of the answer lies in reviving local traditions.
While art and music are important parts of culture and have a special place in Islamic culture, these days Western music and art seem to be more popular among young Muslims. Western culture does seem to have a certain allure. Since Napoleon invaded Egypt in 1798 Muslims have been enthralled by the West, beginning at that time with science and technology but now continuing into the cultural sphere. The problem is part of a broader trend, and it is not fair to blame the youth for listening to Western music when adults are wearing Western clothes, thinking Western thoughts and living practically every aspect of life the Western way. What seems necessary is a broad effort at cultural rejuvenation that includes dress, food, work, education and other areas.
One thing we should do is look at what options our young have when it comes to cultural and artistic endeavours. Have we not failed them by not carrying on our own traditions? The Western way is present-oriented: it exists only in the here and now. For living traditions to compete with essentially dead fads, they have to be kept alive. Muslims have to find ways to practise their own cultures, and in the area of music, if we avoid the rigidities of some schools of thought, there is a tremendous richness of sound arts in the Muslim world, incredibly diverse across cultures. If we Muslims outlaw these arts, things like qawwali and jaliya, we are in a sense outlawing our own culture and past, thus paving the way for young Muslims to fill the gap with whatever is to hand, which in this case is provided by the mass culture industries. It is necessary to begin at the community level, and learn how to produce the art of sound. The answer to the problem of being mere consumers, which is what we are most of the time, is to strive to become producers of culture, and to perceive the sound arts in broader contexts.
Muslims have historically developed a rich tradition of instrumental music. This includes various string instruments and wind instruments, such as the lute and flute. Some of the most beautiful and heart-stirring sounds one can imagine have been teased out of these simple instruments, and there are still today accomplished performers on them in the Muslim world, although they are fewer and have become ‘stars’. Perhaps that is part of the problem: it is the death of any cultural tradition, instrumental or otherwise, when its performance is turned over to an elite of experts who develop such high standards of performance that most people are intimidated from even trying to learn. In fact Muslim scholars have frowned upon professional musicians, and there are even rulings that their testimony cannot be accepted in a court of law. Again, it requires reflection to understand the reasons for this. From a cultural point of view, practices are more likely to survive if people perform and participate, rather than only listening or watching. What has happened over the years is that people have become consumers of music, at first played by experts but now commodified via electronics.
In order to make the argument for rejuvenation of Islamic sound arts, we have to discuss their distinctive qualities and how these differ from other musical traditions. Instead of using Western methods of analysis, it is important to develop descriptions of the sound arts that are based on Islamic principles and proceed from the Qur’an and Sunnah. One key feature of the Islamic sound arts, and other arts in general, is their abstract qualities. This stems from the principle of tawhid: that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is utterly separate from His creation and cannot be represented in any way. Sound is less prone to representation than the visual arts, yet the abstract qualities of the Islamic arts are evident in the lack of interest Muslims have shown in music that is programmatic or descriptive. Linked to this abstract quality is the technique of infinite patterning, in which Muslim sound arts tend to work with short patterns that are repeated over and over, but with slight variations that tend to accumulate.
With respect to form, in much Muslim music forms tend to be modular: the idea of a composition in the Western sense is alien; pieces of music are instead assembled from distinct and separable units or modules. These modules are combined and recombined, repeated and varied in myriad ways, leading to another feature of Muslim musical practice: the centrality of improvisation. Qur’anic recitation is improvised in the way the qari (reciter) weaves the words with various melodic phrases. This is never pre-planned, does not follow a set theory (except in the case of some Western-trained reciters), and will differ from recitation to recitation of the same surah. So Muslim sound arts tend to be improvised and informal in construction. Islamic music, because of these features, tends to have a never-ending quality; one does not find the linear build-up to a climax that exists in almost all Western music. It ends when it ends, and there is no psychological manipulation of expectations that one finds in Western music.
Muslim sound arts tend to be "monophonic", which means that they follow one melody line, the model being the lone voice reciting the Qur’an. The musical equivalent would be instruments and voices all following basically the same line, in contradistinction to Western music, which is almost always polyphonic: different instruments play different parts that fit together like a puzzle. Vocal music is primary in Islamic culture, but even instrumental music, at its best, takes on the qualities of vocal music. These features create what could be called the unity of Islamic musics, proceeding in form from Qur’anic recitation. There are also "regional variations", in which the sound arts of cultures from before Islam have been gradually modified and integrated into Islamic cultures. This has created diversity in things like sound intervals and preferences for melodic fragments, the rhythms and instruments used, not to mention languages and song-themes. There is much more to be said about all this, but this is a sketch of what could be seen as the distinctive features of Islamic sound arts.
Another, perhaps more subtle, aspect of the music debate is to consider whether sound arts and musics have special features distinctive for each listener and performer. Imam Khomeini (ra) once gave a fatwa that one should decide which music is haram for oneself by the way it affects one. This is a sort of sufi or irfani way of seeing the matter. If one’s consciousness is at the level of base desires, then music will increase those desires; if one has a higher consciousness, the same music can have an edifying impact. This perspective leaves it difficult to make a blanket statement for or against music. Imam Khomeini also answered a question about the use of musical instruments by saying that it depends on how they are used and by whom: this view echoes Imam Ghazali, who made distinctions about music according to three criteria: the place of listening, the time of listening, and the companions of listening. This is not to say only that music is a free-for-all, that each person makes individual rules. Rather it is recognition that people are at different stages, and that some people are more aware and others more distracted. Everyone can work on spirituality, but there seems to be a point at which the tables turn, when things like music can be pulling one downward or drawing upward. Such a view can help put music into the same category as other things of beauty in general.
Music, like all the arts, is partly about beauty. The universe is full of beauty; Allah made many beauties for human beings to enjoy. For example, Allah made women beautiful to help create a special bond of affection between men and women. But at the same time beauty needs to be handled delicately and with care, which is why women cover their beauty except in certain circumstances, and why over-indulgence can lead to a dulling of the senses. So music needs caution and each listener needs to evaluate his own relationship with forms of beauty. One may notice, by the way, that the more rigid the interpretation of Islam the less beautiful the resulting culture becomes; in such cultures, women are often not treated well. So Muslims need to understand beauty, this Divine gift, and learn to appreciate it, not to repress it, nor make it ugly, but to respect it as a gift from our Creator. This approach seems more constructive: rather than demanding an easy yes/no or halal/haram answer, it requires that one thinks. Each and every Muslim needs to think analytically and logically, about this and other matters: and that has to be a good thing.


salams

wesam

#35 Cigdem

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 05:40 AM

Too much though have i seen the Quran being used as if it was a music Cd. 
it is played and left in the background whilst people talk and chatter. In the muslim male only gym i go to, they play it while people work out. that really bothers the hell out of me. especially when you get a baboon of a guy in there lifting a hell of a lot of weight and him going off his rocker while Quran is playing. 


aw gawd, I can SO vouch for that! my brother used to wake up in the wee hours of the morning to go to the mosque for prayer, but just before he left he'd put the quran on full blast and then leave. imagine that waking up furious, just to pray. mind you he did this each time he went to soccer or friends place... and to think i was doing my hsc at the time. not only that, each time we fought over something small ...say keeping the door open or closed... he'd end it with " may Allah guide you in the right path.. thats all i have to say" :x

anyway...

thats my bit of therapy for the day.

and no, im still not convinced that all music is HARAAAM.
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#36 GreenOz

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 08:07 AM

For those who have given up music completely (except for the halal Daff), for the sake of Allah: 

May Allah grant you Jannat Al Firdous and unite you with those of the past who made sacrifices, who distanced themselves from their whims and the calls of their own nafs - solely for Allah's pleasure. May Allah prepare for you Halal Music in Jannah, music the likes of which no ears have heard and no hearts can ever fathom - for your patience in this life. May Allah allow you to make use of your time in this life. May He allow you to listen to the recitation of the beautiful speech of Allah instead - the Holy Quran - and also, benefical islamic lectures. Indeed the prophet sallahu 3alyhi wassalam praised both - listening to the Quran and seeking islamic knowledge. May Allah accept your deeds and forgive you your sins. Ameen.


This dua would have been nicer to give to all Muslims than to a select few.
And we go back to the original key word as already discussed, what is 'music'? Also, you have introduced a new phrase, 'Halal Daff'??? Plz explain??? Thats like a delicatessan I know who used to advertise his 'Halal Dates'? :shock:

For those who listen to music: 

May Allah guide you and change you from listening to the instruments and words of Shaytaan to listening to the Quran. Ameen. 
As Ibn Al Qayim said, the words of shaytaan and the words of Allah cannot co-exist in the same heart. Should our hearts contain Allah's Words - the verses from the Quran - or the lyrics and the tunes of shaytaan?


Some times these lyrics of songs, take for example some love songs, they can bring a husband and wife together with the energy in the song, it could be a relaxing effect for both. So, a song that has no explicit lyrics that talks about love, and is the instrument of change for a stressful period in a relationship, sounds good to me (no pun intended)....

With that I ask you all (and myself FIRST) to make use of your time, we are in the Holy 10 days of Dhul Hijjah. There are no other days where deeds are more worthy in the sight of Allah than these 10 days, Allahu akbar! Let's give up the argumentation and pick up the Quran...and not the 2Pac/JLo/Dion/Mozzart CD!


No-one is degrading, not belittling the Quran, its message, its purpose, its hearing, etc....No-one is advocating to run to shopping centres and buy these CDs as i think they are a waste of money anyways, I prefer to buy a book....(my own nerdy opinion)... 8)

People should exercise Wisdom as this thread itself has introduced new information that maybe most of us lacked on the matter, so its all a learning experience.

Peace
Hanan
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#37 reemziez

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 11:54 AM

salaamziez

i know my comments earlier may have sounded like i sing, dance and listen to eminem all day but far from it my car cds consist of abdul basit, ajami, shatri, sudais etc... got a beautiful dthikr one with nice madayeh and salawat a'la nabi


nice :) ...so i might have had a wrong impression of u :P...but ur "i will listen to music until i go deaf" makes u seem like a fanatic musician :P

oh n btw, not ALL of yusuf islam's nasheeds sound like nursery rhymes! and the ones that do are SUPPOSE to cuz theyre made for kids! he sings quite a few in arabic for teenagers.. i like them anyhow :)

ma3asalaamziez
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"The Sufis have been the strictest adherents to the sacred law, but they have a wonderful principle: that is be hard on yourself and be gentle with other people." -Shayke Hamza Yusuf

#38 Myst

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 02:45 PM

Cigdem: As for your bro ending the argument with " may Allah guide you in the right path.. thats all i have to say", mashaAllah this is very commedable. Many siblings end arguments swearing at each other or insulting each other in some other way. To end the argument with a du'a for your sibling is very good, alhamdulillah. May Allah reward him. ameen.

HananD: In regards to: "This dua would have been nicer to give to all Muslims than to a select few" I meant that dua for the select few. It's natural to make a good du'a for people who you think are trying to practise islam. Of course I didn't make du'a JUST for them, I also made a du'a for the others, but not to the quality of the first du'a - and that is understandable I hope. Let's face it, who DOESN'T like music? It's not really something that many people can dislike. Yet, some people have chosen the akhira over the dunya and have made sacrifices for Allah's sake even though their nafs calls them to these evils. It is easy to give in to this fitnah with excuses like "Oh music is everywhere, can't avoid it, might as well listen to it." Allah likes those who struggle, hence I made a special du'a specifically for them.

As for definition of 'Music', I meant all 'musical instruments' with the exception of Daff. The scholars who the people have quoted as being 'Pro-Music' - Imam Ghazali and Ibn Hazm - allowed singing innocent songs and not musical instruments.

By 'Halal Daff', what I should have said in that sentence was 'Halal instrument - the Daff'.

As for: "Some times these lyrics of songs, take for example some love songs, they can bring a husband and wife together with the energy in the song, it could be a relaxing effect for both. So, a song that has no explicit lyrics that talks about love, and is the instrument of change for a stressful period in a relationship, sounds good to me (no pun intended).... "
Lyrics aside, the MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS are haram, this is what has been argued by those who have said that music is haram. Lyrics can only add more haram to what is already haram. Also, the justifications like the song 'has energy' or 'brings couples together' would be invalid if the music itself is haram. Alcohol also has some medical benefits when taken in moderate amounts, should muslims pop the whisky once in a while? Of course not. Taking a loan from a bank would also have its benefits, should we ignore the Riba involved? Many muslim youths would argue that a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is really important before getting married to the person, should we be lax in this too? The muslims of the past turned to Allah for help in ALL situations. Do we need to resort to music instead of Allah? Couples should marry for Allah's sake and turn to Him in times of need. We recite sura Al Fatiha in every rakat, we recite "You alone we worship and you alone we seek help from", what is the purpose of this if we are not applying it? That's not to say that we cannot utilise tools that may help our situation, but they need to be Halal. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that these justifications have little bearing on the issue at hand and to be honest, I think it is one of the plots of shaytaan. Consider what Ibn Al Qayim said: "The best way to protect ourselves from wrong is to keep away from anything that could lead to it. One of the favorite tricks of the shaytaan, which deceives everyone except those who are clever enough to see it, is to show a person some goodness in a wrong thing, and call him to go towards what is good; when the person gets close to it, he falls into the trap."

May Allah guide us ALL. ameen.
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#39 Shibshib

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 05:05 PM

Assalamu `alaikum everyone,

Sorry to chime in guys. I wasn't planning to, but I feel I have to say something.

Myst, please allow me to paraphrase your second last post:

For those who agree with my opinion on this fiqh issue: may Allah reward you etc.

For those who disagree with my opinion on this fiqh issue: may Allah guide you.

Hmm...

I am sorry, but it is pure delusion to say that all scholars who hold that music is halal exclude instrumental music from their definition of music. That is false. This debate has been going on between scholars for centuries, and there are many who held the permissibility of instrumental music.

I am not saying that everyone should hold that view. I am not even saying I support it. I am however saying that I am sick to death of people talking about the music issue like it's some simple matter with a black and white answer.

I'm sorry Myst, but it is grossly unfair to put everyone who chooses to listen to music in the basket labelled 'preferring the dunya over the akhira'. That was the implied meaning of your last post. How is the idea of preference even relevant if there exists a legitimate scholarly view that music is, of itself, halal? If someone finds that view persuasive, then fine. It is not without its basis, and it has some strong proponents.

I don't want to get all usuli in this post. I don't want to enter the legal argument at this stage because there is a greater issue at stake. That issue is the seemingly complete inability of some to consider that there is another opinion out there, held by many scholars past and present, and that it is a very sound one based on very sound analysis of the evidence. If you wish to reject that view, then wonderful. But please, please stop engaging in the discourse as though the matter is settled for anyone who has a brain, or some knowledge. That is just intellectual terrorism. It is vacuous, it is repugnant, and it creates horrible and unnecessary problems.

What I have written applies to both sides of the debate. It's just that it seems that in every case, the least tolerant ones are those who hold the stricter view. It's almost like 'I've chosen a stricter view and it's making my life difficult, so I'm going to make sure everyone else suffers along with me'. May Allah give you the strength to live according to the strict decision you've made. Ameen. But there is nothing that gives you the moral, scholastic, intellectual or even social authority to decide an issue as complicated and continually debated amongst scholars as the permissibility of music, is simply black and white, and that everyone who is sincere should accord with you.

I hope my meaning has been clearly conveyed.

Ma salaama,

Shibshib.
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#40 Anon1

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 05:50 PM

I did a shibshib and wrote this long detailed response then...got disconnected. Damn dial-up.

Anyway, the crux of my post was that do we then look at a few aspects of the "music" (and yes I agree that defining it is problematic when you look at a linear western definition):
1. Intentions (in listening to the music)
2. Effects (of listening to the music)
3. Content

...when evaluating whether it would hold a useful place in our lives. Now that I am getting older, I can't tell my jay-zees from my ja-rules and if i were to listen to J-Lo I'd need a dictionary to understand what she's saying anyway. So I like reem's idea of sticking to nasheeds just to be on the safe side. My little brother listens to songs by Soldiers of Allah (www.soldiersofallah.com) that are, strictly speaking, rap...but hey, it gets the message across...

#41 Myst

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 06:02 PM

Wa alikum assalam

"For those who agree with my opinion on this fiqh issue: may Allah reward you etc.

For those who disagree with my opinion on this fiqh issue: may Allah guide you. "

Breaking my thoughts down like that is inaccurate - but I don't deny that what I have stated previously may have given that impression, so alhamdulillah 3ala kulli 7aal.
The fact is that I feel like making du'a for people who follow the deen more strictly in general, whether it coincides with my opinion or not. For example, on the issue of niqab - (whether its waajib or not). The scholars seem divided and I don't hold the view that it is waajib - if the issue becomes clearer in the future, I may hold that view, but at the moment I don't. However, I have great respect for niqabis for their sacrifices and their efforts and that may cause me to make a better du'a for them. That is just one example - similar to how we make a special du'a for the scholars and the "strugglers". The point is, the ones who exert MORE effort into practising the deen (and not listening to music requires a LOT) are more inspiring than the ones who may not exert as much effort - which is why my du'a will favour them more. I really don't see the problem here, it is MY du'a after all. Anyway, before I get myself into anymore trouble, I would like to ask for forgiveness if my comments gave a negative impression, they weren't meant to. Rather, they were aimed at praising the ones who follow islam strictly.

JazakAllah khair for the post akhi, although I don't agree with all the points made, I will stop there and add no more to this post inshaAllah as I see it is of little benefit.

May Allah guide us ALL to the truth. ameen.
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Posted 08 February 2003 - 06:38 PM

Asalamu A'laykoum,


Myst wrote:

Cigdem: As for your bro ending the argument with " may Allah guide you in the right path.. thats all i have to say", mashaAllah this is very commedable. Many siblings end arguments swearing at each other or insulting each other in some other way. To end the argument with a du'a for your sibling is very good, alhamdulillah. May Allah reward him. ameen.


At least the swearing and arguements are sincere. Why bother say Allah guide you if you dont really mean it from your heart and say it to put a brother or sister down?

I've witnessed way too often people who try and get their message across to someone and that certain someone either doesnt fathom their idea or may be of a different mindset and because of this, the one trying to impose his message becomes frustrated and throws in the line of " Allah yehdeek or yehdeeki - O Allah guide them". As if to say they have already been guided and they no longer need it.

What agitates them more is when someone looks and smiles and says " i certainly hope so!"

Get frustrated by all means but dont get your knickers in a knot and think that somehow you've been rewarded and gifted to be of such enlightenment while others are in desperate need of hidaya.

If its one thing that gets up my nerve its the imputing of purity on oneself..... something Allah mentions in the Quran in verse 32 chapter 53:

Those who avoid enormities of sin and abominations, save the unwilled offences - (for them) lo! thy Lord is of vast mercy. He is Best Aware of you (from the time) when He created you from the earth, and when ye were hidden in the bellies of your mothers. Therefor ascribe not purity unto yourselves. He is Best Aware of him who wardeth off (evil).

Imam Al Ghazali in his first book of ihya ulum al deen, section of knowledge when describing the evils of debates quotes the above reference as one of them.

Myst Wrote:

Yet, some people have chosen the akhira over the dunya and have made sacrifices for Allah's sake even though their nafs calls them to these evils.


LOL........ i think shib shib has commented on that enough but i will say i have a real problem with the words " Allahs sake" being used consistently as if to say that Allah is needy of these things. Why dont we use the words for the Love of Allah, for the way of Allah, for the path of Allah, for the obedience of Allah.... why is it always sake? I mean theres no doubt it can be used but people have adapted it blindly and now use it at every chance they can.

Brother one: donate some money to the organisation.
Brother two: inshallah brother when im able to
Brother one: But you should give up your material possessions and worry not about dunya.
Brother two: inshallah akhi, but i dont have any worldly possesions to be able to give in the first place.
Brother one: DO IT FOR THE SAKEEEE OFFFFFF ALLAHHHHH BROOOTTTHEEERRR!!!!!
Brother two: errr ummmmm who else would it be for?

different scenario:

Brother one: attend the meetings brother
Brother two: inshallah but i have work scheduled tonight
Brother one: WHAT??? Your saying you dont want to come to Allahs meeting but you want to go to a kuffar work??
Brother two: err umm i have five kids and a wife.
Brother one: SO WHAT!!! do you think your boss is the rezak?? Allah is the rezak!
Brother two: err umm real discovery sherlock
Brother one: YOU HAVE TO SACRIFICEEEE FOR THE SSSSSAKKKKKKE OF ALLLAHHHHH.

its either these repeated lines or other absurdities. or it could be screamed FI SABIIILLL ILLLAHHHHHH!!!!!

Why is it so hard to grasp that someone else has another opinion and it is perfectly legitimate to do so since there has been no direct hukum forbidding it? Had Allah or Muhammad said The playing of music is forbidden and is a major sin to you i would keep my mouth shut and i doubt it would even be an issue with scholars. but since it hasnt been mentioned it leaves a vast scope out there for people to interpret with.

You refrain from music.... May Allah reward you IF IT IS REWARDABLE. I listen to music, then may Allah punish me IF IT IS PUNISHABLE. you may listen to music and hear encitement or arousal of emotions and thoughts. i listen to it and hear beauty of sounds, balance of harmony and sweetness of compositions.

having said that, primarily why i am not enticed to bad thoughts when listening to music is because i dont listen to bad music. then again i forgot..... all music is bad to you.
khier inshallah.
salams

wesam

#43 taqwa

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 07:25 PM

Had Allah or Muhammad said The playing of music is forbidden and is a major sin to you i would keep my mouth shut and i doubt it would even be an issue with scholars. but since it hasnt been mentioned it leaves a vast scope out there for people to interpret with.


I find it confusing what you mean there. There is a hadith where the Prophet (peace be upon him) refers to how some people among his ummah will make musical instruments permissible. I mean, the ayah about 'idle talk' could mean many things, but are there any other interpretations for this reference to musical instruments in arabic? By the way, dont take this as my 'attempt' at some fatwa that prohibits music, as you once tried to imply I did.
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#44 Cigdem

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 09:04 PM

At least the swearing and arguements are sincere. Why bother say Allah guide you if you dont really mean it from your heart and say it to put a brother or sister down? 


furthermore, its seems pointless to sugest religious guidance on such a petty issue. Am i off the path of islam if i decide to keep the door open?
anyway, (I can't believe i actually brought that up in the first place) my point was exactly how bro. wesam mentioned...

I've witnessed way too often people who try and get their message across to someone and that certain someone either doesnt fathom their idea or may be of a different mindset and because of this, the one trying to impose his message becomes frustrated and throws in the line of " Allah yehdeek or yehdeeki - O Allah guide them". As if to say they have already been guided and they no longer need it. 


why take your anger out on religion??? myst, you seem so passionate about praising those who you think are doing right, and praying for the people who you think are the sinners.

For those who listen to music: 
May Allah guide you and change you from listening to the instruments and words of Shaytaan to listening to the Quran. Ameen. 


But have you ever thought of the effect that your words have on people? Im not saying that its insulting, but after hearing over and over again - it is quite degrading. Not only that, its desensitising religion. I take for granted that if one day there was a war or disease (god forbid) and i was left with nothing... absolutely nothing. I'd have my religion and faith... and with nothing else would matter. But to take (or rather gamble) that last bit of hope from someone... is as good as murder. I know it sounds like ive blown the whole thing way out of proportion, but i really think this very topic plays a large role in keeping the bond within muslim communities. just previously on another another thread, a brother was explaining how annoyed he was with the different groups going their own different ways - which is good, but its when one group "prays" for the other in reaching the true path.. and the other does vice-versa... and before you know it, we're worrying about each other, rather than the race discrimination act or asio etc... ( which reminds me of a group of brothers who go door-to-door preaching islam, yet when i asked whether they have seen any progress or interested anyone, i was given the prompt reply, "no no, we just visit the muslims" :roll: fantastic, one more person to pray for my guidance, and show me the 'right' way)
myst, i am delighted to know that you and others are praying for me - but if its a prayer so that i may follow your opinion on something... either if its that i stop listening to music, or that i become a 4th wife - please dont. and please dont tell me either. IF you were so sincere in your intensions then you would do so without saying a word - but it obviously gives YOU some sort of satisfaction by saying it out loud.
not only is it disrespectful to the individual, but also to the religion ( like using it as some sort of tool.)

back to music: does anybody remember the second muslims girls formal? everyone got dressed up and was ready enjoy a well earned post-hsc evening. little did they know, the girls ended up dancing to raihan all night.
ill never forget that night...
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#45 Shibshib

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 12:05 AM

Assalamu `alaikum everyone,

Rather, they were aimed at praising the ones who follow islam strictly.


I sincerely hope you don't mean what you said there. It implies that those who do not share your opinion on this issue are not following Islam strictly - that they are somehow 'lax'. That excludes the possibility that they have a valid view on this issue, and at the risk of repeating myself, that is simply not true.

I have no problem on the other hand if you mean 'they were aimed at praising the one who follow a strict interpretation of Islam'. That's fine. But please do not disparage others by suggesting they are somehow less observant than others merely because they do not take the strictest view.

As I said before, I do not want to enter the legal debate on the issue. I'm quite happy for people to hold whatever opinion they hold. For now, let us just say that the hadith mentioned by taqwa has been interpreted in different ways by different scholars. As a legal text, it is in fact fairly ambiguous.

There are some who felt the narration is weak as well. This is notwithstanding the fact that it appears in Bukhari. Remember, Bukhari is not infallible, and was never considered to be so. Different muhaddithun have declared various narrations from it weak for various reasons. The science of hadith is like that - there are differing views within that science as well.

I hope we're now at a stage where we can appreciate that others may not share our view, and that this does not necessarily mean they are misguided. Indeed, it is true in any discipline, the more you learn, the more you appreciate that you could very well be wrong.

Ma salaama,

Shibshib.
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#46 reemziez

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 03:49 AM

salaamziez

wouldnt it be convenient for the ummah if the scholars just agreed on one thing? that would make our lives sooo much more easier! maybe they should all get together every now and then at some sort of Anual Islamic Scholarship Meeting, discuss these little issues like music, celebrating birthdays, etc, and conclude with ONE DECISION, for the SAKE OF THE UMMAH! :D *sigh*...

and btw, i think everyone in this group is pretty much set in their own beliefs about music, our discussion isnt really getting anywhere... other than people finding faults in other peoples' posts. and according to Islam, we should look at our own faults b4 finding faults in others.:)

criticism most welcome...
ma3asalaamziez
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#47 Bok

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 07:26 AM

Salams & G'day

Are you saying that has been classified as a weak hadith? Sahih Bukhari  :shock:


Even Bukhari (may Allah be pleased with him) has had some of his hadiths criticised. Suyuti (may Allah be pleased with him too) (if memory serves me correctly) wrote a book on hadiths in Bukhari he found weak. Sunni Islam recognises Bukhari's collection as the greatest collection but that doesn't stop later scholars criticising individual hadiths in his great tome.

I'll quote you some of Suyuti's criticisms if you are interested (the one about the height of Prophet Adam, alayhisalam is fascinating).

Anil8URSELF quoted:

"One may notice, by the way, that the more rigid the interpretation of Islam the less beautiful the resulting culture becomes; in such cultures, women are often not treated well."


I find this statement to be extremely interesting. I wonder if this corrolates to non-Muslim cultures/faiths as well. Fundamentalist Christianity springs to mind with keeping the little woman barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

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#48 GreenOz

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 09:46 AM

and btw, i think everyone in this group is pretty much set in their own beliefs about music, our discussion isnt really getting anywhere... other than people finding faults in other peoples' posts. and according to Islam, we should look at our own faults b4 finding faults in others.


I can hear the fat lady coming on stage, surely she is gonna sing and put an end to all this...... :wink:

[b]Peace
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Posted 09 February 2003 - 10:11 AM

Asalamu A'laykoum,

Bok i cant remember quoting that line...... maybe it was in the artcile i pasted. anyways

Reemz wrote:


wouldnt it be convenient for the ummah if the scholars just agreed on one thing? that would make our lives sooo much more easier!


Actually sis the opposite bares more truth. " the difference of opinion is a mercy amongst the ummah". Someone correct me if im wrong but i think that was a Hadith.

When you look at the above quote you realise that not everyone has the same mentality. Not everyone can grasp the same concepts. This has been demonstrated quite clearly in the posts on this website. Differing opinions exist everywhere.

For example. Imam Shafi holds it that if you touch a woman and there was no intent to or you touched her without sexual intent as well then you dont have to make wudduh. Imam abu hanifa states the opposite. Touch her at anytime and you need to make wuuduh. both of these men took their daleel from the sunnah and Quran. So which one is correct? Both are! Why has this then become a mercy? because for somoene that finds it a hardship to consistently make wudduh he can take the verdict of shaf'i but for the other who is quite happy to make wudduh then he can take the opinion of imam abu hanifa.

Imam malik and abu hanifa hold the knee to be a part of a'wra for the male while imam al shaf'i doesnt. Imam hambal states that only the two private parts are a'wra for the male under due necessity where as at other times clothes should be below the knee.

You may think O my God HoW??? why is it so confusing? The simple fact of the matter is, its not confusing, and simple to understand that your life can be made alot more easier because of this difference of opinion. its like Allah has allowed for these certain freedoms and people throw it back and say "NO i want thE stricteR, ONE WAY version of Islam". Fine if thats your cup of tea but there will come a point in your life where u need leniency and you will burnout if you dont take it.

The quality of making everything hard on ourselves is the Quality of the jews. Everyone knows the story of the cow and how they just couldnt accept from Allah that he tell them to slaughter a cow. so they questioned and questioned until Allah made it harder and harder on them until they became satisfied with the harder way. they did this with every issue and kept going from believers to non believers and to and fro so much until they became " maghdoubi A'layhim". why is that? because no human can take it to be on such a level of strictness all the time. muhammad said in a hadith " if your iman were elevated all the time, then you would shake hands with the angels". the meaning here is that no human can be of perfect piety completely all the time and if they were, then they would have the characteristics of angels which do not sin and only obey Allah. hence we'd be shaking there hands because we'd be one of them so to say.

Its not by chance that we say that 17 times a day minimum in our prayer
" ghayril maghdoubi a'layhim".
Ibn taymiya states that the ummah will separate into two..... Ghayril maghdoubi a'layhim and the DDaaleen. some will take it too harsh and others will take it too lax. doesnt make any of them completely correct or completely wrong in my opinion just not the best way to approach it.

"Al deenu Wasat" religon is moderation dont forget.

maybe they should all get together every now and then at some sort of Anual Islamic Scholarship Meeting, discuss these little issues like music, celebrating birthdays, etc, and conclude with ONE DECISION, for the SAKE OF THE UMMAH!  *sigh*...


thats the thing.... if we were to get together there has to be formal education of some of these so called scholars that there is a difference of opinion in the madthaheb and amongst the scholars. so more than concluding with ONE DECISION i think the important thing would be to educate everyone and then forward onto everyone else the difference of opinion for the Sake of the ummah lol.

once the ummah has u'lama and shiekhs who sit with there students, teach there madthab and at the same time explain, "if you see a brother or sister doing this or that different than you then it is because they are allowed to under a different madthab and do not be intolerant of such things", this is where real understanding takes place.

we dont need one way.... we need acceptance of several ways.
this has always been the case in Islam from the begining. with the occasional khawarij popping up here and there. the latest edition to these khawarij is the wahabi/salafi movement who are only 100-150 years old and a small minority of muslim thought.

since their establishment they have done nothing but to throw back and forth the phrases of we need to deconstruct Islam and give ONE way back to the ummah. Islam never deconstructed but always constructed. as hamza yusuf says, Islam will come to a feast and see a pig in the middle of the table. It will remove that pig and then eat everything else because it is tayeb and halal. Islam wont say throw all that table away. this is essentially the wahabi mindset. ( hamza didnt say that last bit)

the wahabis were enforced by the british and combined with the Saud family to create what is now known as " saudi arabia" when it was never known as such. it was always known as balad al hijaz. but together with the brits and the sauds they overthrew the ottoman calipha and then established their false monarchy.
theyve infiltrated everywhere and try to push their petro-funded ideology into everyones head, driving people into fear that if they arent a part of them then something is severly wrong with them and they may be heading towards the wrong path.

but more on wahabis later.

salams

wesam

#50 reemziez

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 11:04 AM

asalaamo alaykum

" the difference of opinion is a mercy amongst the ummah". Someone correct me if im wrong but i think that was a Hadith. 

interesting.. i never looked at it that way. but i still sort of find it confusing.. like last year when i told a few friends i was having an 18th birthday party, they were like "OH MY GOSH!! REEM, THAT'S HARAAM!!!", so i cancelled it, and told my other friends why i cancelled it, and THEY were like "what?! since when was it haraam?!" :roll:

but bro, i do understand the point ur making... and yes, givin the situation, sometimes its better to follow the more lenient imam, but i was always told that whichever sect of islam u follow, you should follow all the rules within that sect, for instant, if imam shafi is lax with the touching women/wadhu thing, yet strict with the man's knee/awra thingie, then u should follow both of his beliefs, be lenient with the former yet strict with the latter.. instead of following different imaams each time u chose to do sumthin more lenient. i could be wrong, but thats what i've been taught.

Also, another question i wanted to ask, u said that differences in opinions are a mercy on the ummah.. but we all know that islam will divide into 70-sumthin sects b4 the akhira, and only one of those sects will enter paradise.. so how can these differences in opinion be a mercy for us?? and if im not mistaken, there was that hadiths about those who make divisions in islam will be punished, and something about the increasing number of divisions in islam being a sign that the day of judgment is approaching.

And one lucky last question :) u said that different imams may have differences in opinions, and that neither is wrong nor right. well remember a few years ago that mufti from india came to autralia saying sumthin like "hey ummah! gelatine is actually halal!!" ..but what if its not? if its haraam, yet we eat it thinking its halal, then does that make it halal?? or even more extreme to this, theres this one so-called imam that believes alcohol ISN'T haram! because if u only drink a little, its not toxicating. so umm he's neither wrong nor right?

one confused little mind here :?

walaykum asalaamziez
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#51 taqwa

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 03:10 PM

Assalaamu alaykum,

Anil8Urself: Your post pretty much sounds like a condonement of 'fatwa shopping' common among people these days. Ask enough people and you will soon find a view that is acceptable to your desires, the theory goes. I sure hope this is not what you meant in that last post. All opinions have daleel, and I'm not the type of person who says there is only one way, but I think ou have to be careful about jumping from one school of thought to another. That is just following desires in my eyes.

Wassalaam
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Posted 09 February 2003 - 08:57 PM

salams

just to clear something up, i made a mistake in my last post on the issue of male touching a female. its the other way around. imam abu hanifa says it is ok so long as there wasnt a sexual intent and imam shafi says its requires wudduh.

as for the question on fatwa shopping, youve grossly oversimplified and misunderstood it. My question is how can it be fatwa shopping when a renown scholar by the concensus of all scholars has given his daleel in regards to the context of the question???

Its like a commonly regurgitated line......... "stay on the safe side and take the stricter view". So does that automatically make the lenient opinion which also has its daleel unsafe?? this is an absurdity and when you havent bothered to study or partake in a course about the difference of opinons in the ummah or the ettiquettes of disagreement then it always remains as a hard concept to grasp.

taqwa wrote:

but I think ou have to be careful about jumping from one school of thought to another. That is just following desires in my eyes.


again that mindset is not correct. Imam shaf'i when he visited the school of imam malik after his death prayed in the same manner as the maliki fiqu yet he himself was the establisher of a madthab. his saying was: Who am i to disrespect the great imam Malik. this is the tolerance that traditional muslims had. Imam abu hanifa had two of his best students refute over 1/3 of his madthab, yet they were to their last dying days by utterances from thier own mouths, STUDENTs of imam abu hanifa. this is the correct mindset of a Muslim.

Since when was following your desires haram if it didnt send you into ma'siya?? So long as the individual isnt falling into haram then to follow a shah-weh is in no school of thought forbidden. your prayer in itself is a desire. A desire for closeness to Allah or for repentance, forgiveness, or whatever it may be. nonetheless a desire. how then does one continue practising their religon if they find everything they do too hard for them to complete? this is where the mercy of Allah comes in.

it isnt for no reason at all that The Prophet would say that if one man completed his five pillars alone and added nothing to them then the fire of hell wouldnt touch him. but do you think this would apply to Abu bakr, umar, uthman and ali??? absolutely not. in actual fact if they didnt complete all their sunnan, pray at the masjid every prayer, and get up for qiyam al lail then they would be looked down upon. Umar on one occasion for missing the jam'ah asr prayer donated land worth 200,000 dirhams! Which muslim would do that today??

so the ball is in your court...... what is the problem with one searching for the approved opinion of a scholar that has its basis from Quran and sunnah so that their desires are fulfilled in practising their religon??

Reemz wrote;

Also, another question i wanted to ask, u said that differences in opinions are a mercy on the ummah.. but we all know that islam will divide into 70-sumthin sects b4 the akhira, and only one of those sects will enter paradise.. so how can these differences in opinion be a mercy for us?? and if im not mistaken, there was that hadiths about those who make divisions in islam will be punished, and something about the increasing number of divisions in islam being a sign that the day of judgment is approaching. 

And one lucky last question  u said that different imams may have differences in opinions, and that neither is wrong nor right. well remember a few years ago that mufti from india came to autralia saying sumthin like "hey ummah! gelatine is actually halal!!" ..but what if its not? if its haraam, yet we eat it thinking its halal, then does that make it halal?? or even more extreme to this, theres this one so-called imam that believes alcohol ISN'T haram! because if u only drink a little, its not toxicating. so umm he's neither wrong nor right?


Alot of the ulama have said that hadith is weak. besides that lets assume that that is a strong hadith. Since when was the sirat only consisting of one kind of mentality??
i think ive posted in another subject that shar'ia means the BROAD road to water in its route meaning. That isnt by chance! Alhamdullillah that it doesnt mean the straight and narrow road which would be disasterous for alot of muslims as their ability to practise islam would be limited. if everyone practised and thought the same way then i guess the whole idea of some being prefered over others in stations in jannah would be thrown out the window. similarily the idea that some will enter before others would also be thrown out the window. Wed all have equal share and enter jannah at the same time. but this is definitely not the case as understood from Quran and sunnah.
being of a differing opinion doesnt automatically class you as a sect. the four madthabs are NOT different sects. and the other lesser known madthabs are NOT different sects. their all from the same sunni branch. this isnt even to say the shia branches are not under the rahma of Allah. Only Allah has that knowledge.

in regards to imams i didnt say neither are wrong or right. i said neither are wrong and more specifically i said Both are right ( essentially the same meaning with different wording) but had i said both are right and wrong then you'd have somethign on me :). if they were neither right then we'd be in serious trouble. having said that, the understanding of the traditional ulama was much more balanced than these days. imam shaf'i said i am right with the possibility of being wrong and my contemporaries are wrong with the possibility of being right. they never considered themselves to be the be all and end all of Islam and always understood their possible incorrectness. but thats what made them special....... they were much more sincere than us and only sought Allahs pleasure hence wether they were right or wrong didnt matter to them. When he wrote his risala, he began checking and checking it and each time he checked it he found mistakes until he reached the 40th time and he said " a-outhebelah!! only the book of Allah is perfect" and he left his risala unchecked again.

if someone says something is halal as in your example of gelatine and it directly goes against the sharia come on sis..... this is a no brainer.... do u seriously listen to him?
like if someone says to you that scotch isnt like khamr which is made from fermented fruit does this make scotch halal?
the list of examples goes on and your more than smart enough to know that if there is a direct hukum from Allah or Muhammad then of course we dont dwell into it. also khamr is forbidden by the Quran in small and large quantities and its explicitly written in there. So we dont need a fake scholar saying its ok in small quantities because its not intoxicating.

i hope this helps

salams
wesam

#53 reemziez

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 09:32 PM

asalaamo alaykum

if someone says something is halal as in your example of gelatine and it directly goes against the sharia come on sis..... this is a no brainer.... do u seriously listen to him? 
like if someone says to you that scotch isnt like khamr which is made from fermented fruit does this make scotch halal? 
the list of examples goes on and your more than smart enough to know that if there is a direct hukum from Allah or Muhammad then of course we dont dwell into it. also khamr is forbidden by the Quran in small and large quantities and its explicitly written in there. So we dont need a fake scholar saying its ok in small quantities because its not intoxicating. 

thats the point bro, what if there IS NO DIRECT hukam from Allah? take my gelatine example.. the mufti said that gelatine isnt haraam because there is no place in the quran that states that swine BONES are haraam. it only states that Allah made the "FLESH of swine unlawful". Plus the mufti dude said that all bones are naturally pure because they contain no blood. so knowing that gelatine is made only from bones, and that Allah has made the "flesh" of pigs unlawful for us, the mufti came up with this idea that gelatine is halaal. So the first thing that all the muslims did, who heared about this, was go on a shopping spree buying everything they could find that contains gelatine! crazy, but true.

So i still believe that not all the imaams can be right... it just doesnt make sense to me :?


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#54 GhYaS

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 09:49 PM

This could be falsified because in the same verse, it is said whatever on which Allah's name is not evoked is not permissible.

So even an atom from whatever animal which cannot be and/or is not slaughtered without evoking the name of Allah is not permissible. If gelatine comes from say a cow's bone and the cow isn't slaughtered in proper Islamic tradition it would be placed in the same criteria as the flesh of swine.

Pretty straight forward.

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#55 GhYaS

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 09:54 PM

When is the fat lady going to sing? I am waiting.
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#56 reemziez

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 09:57 PM

wasalaamziez

yes, pretty straight forward looking at the way YOU explained it, BUT this mufti also explained it in a pretty convincing way too.. i for one do NOT believe him, NOW that is, but when i heared his speach i was pretty well convinced too, just like the dozens and dozens of other people that were there. i guess some so-called scholars know how to brain wash inocent minds :cry:



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#57 reemziez

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 09:59 PM

When is the fat lady going to sing? I am waiting.


i think the fat lady sung already :P the topic's sorta changed from music to scholars and opinions.
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Posted 09 February 2003 - 10:15 PM

salams

lol
firstly gelatine is not derived from the bone of any animal it is derived from the connective tissue of the animal. namely ligumentous or fibrous tissue, so in essence it is still a type of flesh depending on your connotations of the word flesh and how you understand it. so it isnt from bone but rather from the joints between bone which are naturally jelly like in substance to provide lubrication for joints. thats why gelatine too is jelly like.
they boil the joints and what filters from it is whats known as gelatine.

reemz wrote:

So i still believe that not all the imaams can be right... it just doesnt make sense to me 


maybe i didnt explain it right. the imams when spoken of generally are the agreed upon by all schools and 'sects' as the imams of the madthaheb. im not talking about the current average shiekh or imam. imam literally means a religous leader or somone that leads a prayer. ill give you the MSA islamic glossary definition which is a fairly good definition:

Imam is a religious leader. Any person who leads a congregational prayer is called an Imam. A religious leader who also leads his community in the political affairs may be called an Imam, an Amir, or a Caliph. However, an Imam is not infallible. He is responsible for his mistakes to all the members of the community and above all he is responsible to Almighty Allah.

A faqih or a scholar is on a totally different level than an imam. they still make mistakes and arent infallible but it is agreed upon by concensus of traditional scholars that to take from any of the "imams" of the madthaheb is permissible as their derivation was most definitely always based on Quran and Sunnah.

So i think the only problem here was understanding of what was meant by imams????

salams

wesam

#59 reemziez

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 10:29 PM

Asalaamo alaykum

YES that DEFINATELY helps! jazakAllah khairun for that. I'll learn :) it may take some time and many posts and alot of explanations, but i will learn :P


peace and blessings
ma3asalaamziez
reemziez


i think the fat lady ran off stage :D
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#60 reemziez

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 10:36 PM

oh and bytheway, about the gelatine thingie, the mufti guy told me it was made from BONES!!!! :!: whyyy do they do that?!!!
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