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Male Awrah And Sport, A Justification


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#1 moekalsoon

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:14 PM

Any thoughs on the below topic:

Salams Brothers, I have recently come across an authentic hadith which gives us some leancacy with the awrah so that we can play sports with the right gear without sinning because of possible awrah esposure.

Here it is: in accordance with a sahih hadith narrated by aisha (raa) and classified as sahih by Bukhari and Muslim and ruled on by Imam malik, the prophet PBUH was once lying down in his home with his feet up and his thighs were exposed, Abu Baka (ra) knocked, the prophet said enter and he remained seated as he was, with his thighs exposed, then Umar ra knocked and he said enter still remaining in that position, then uthman (ra) knocked, then the prophet sat up and adjusted his clothes, once they left Aisha raa said, why did u adjust ur self when uthman entered, He PBUH said how can i not be shy infront of the man whom the angels are shy infront of.

From this hadith the Imam Malik and scholars have stated that the thigh is a soft awarah and only makruh at most, the only parts that are haram (forbidden) tp expose are the private parts (the genitals). this can also be proven by the verses from the quran which incite men to cover their awrah which then refers to their private parts, and many verses in the quran all refer to MEN PROTECTING THEIR PRIVATE PARTS, MEN CONCEALING THEIR PRIVATE PARTS, etc..

therefore given the above evidence, men would be allowed to become surf life savers and wear speedos if need be, as they can play footy and afl in those shorts as well as they can swim in a swim team in a speedo uniform or play water polo on a team (uniform is a speedo).

Because of these sahih hadith it is evident that we as muslims are not limited in anyways in contributing and particiapting with the non-muslims of this country, we have a responsibility to be the best we can be in this country and to the people of this country and contribute as much as we can to the development of this nation and its people, as only through proper akhlak and proper character do we even stand a chance at surviving in this nation or in any nation in the world even our own. this is what the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has ordered us to do.

Salams

Br. mohamad


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#2 Ghaith

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:54 AM

You can do all those things without exposing your awra unnecessarily.
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#3 kabdu

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 07:47 AM

You can do all those things without exposing your awra unnecessarily.


^Ditto.

I have participated in all my sport and PE activities since school wearing tracksuit pants or long shorts. It's never been a problem for me and many of my friends, alhamdulillah.
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#4 Ibn Tarek

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 11:27 AM

I don't think speedos get passed the buzzer. they certainly don't 'protect' the nether-regions just as a skin tight swim suit for women wouldn't make the grade.
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#5 kabdu

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 11:56 AM

I don't think speedos get passed the buzzer. they certainly don't 'protect' the nether-regions just as a skin tight swim suit for women wouldn't make the grade.


ASA IT, long time no chat. Insha'allah you are well.


How anyone can wear speedos in public and not feel embarrassed is beyond me. They're not called budgie smugglers for nothing. I guess it's par for the course for people who people who believe it's ok to wear (revealing) clothing on a beach that they wouldn't dare wear in a shopping centre. The incongruity of it is astounding.

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#6 MoldyToast

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 11:59 AM

ASA IT, long time no chat. Insha'allah you are well.


How anyone can wear speedos in public and not feel embarrassed is beyond me. They're not called budgie smugglers for nothing. I guess it's par for the course for people who people who believe it's ok to wear (revealing) clothing on a beach that they wouldn't dare wear in a shopping centre. The incongruity of it is astounding.

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#7 moekalsoon

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:04 PM

salams brother, as long as the private parts are not exposed then they pass the test, dont forget that even though they are tight the figure and form and still protected from definition, even though it is revealing it still wont put someone beyond the bounds if they are required to wear them for training or sport. for example i know that swimmers and water polo players are required to wear them for training and competitions and tournaments, so if it is required to be worn there is no blame, dont get me wrong im not endorsing them but what im trying to say is that if it is required to be worn for a sport that you love and want to play then you can wear them with out guilt. the same applies to many other sports too.
also look at the egyptian water polo team, the saudi water polo team, the morrocan, tansinan and egyptian swimming teams, all from strict muslim nations but they still wear speedos for sport. (probably bad examples but none the less still examples).

salams

I don't think speedos get passed the buzzer. they certainly don't 'protect' the nether-regions just as a skin tight swim suit for women wouldn't make the grade.


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#8 maimat

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:18 PM

Why try and derive your own rulings when there have been many, many scholars who have looked at this issue in the past and have issued their own rulings?
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#9 moekalsoon

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:30 PM

salams, these are not my own rulings, wal 3iyathu billah, i would never issue my own rulings, these are rulings made by many Scholars, but unfortunaley havent reached all of us, inshallah i will complie a list and post it up soon of all, or some of the scholars that have mad these rulings, im really bad with names so i will have to search them again. I know for a fact that one of the scholars is Imam Malik in his book the Muwatta, which was the first compliation of hadith and rulings and explanation of hadith in islamic history, not forgetting that Imam malik was also of the tabi3un atabi3un, thus one of the greatest generations that ever lived in islamic history, he states in his book al muwatta (the well troddden path) that there are 2 classifications of awrah for men, one is a soft awrah and one is a hard awrah, the Hard awrah is the awrah that is forbidden to be shown (and is refered heavily to in the Quran, the private parts) and the soft awrah is the thighs which is just makruh at most, and this ruling was justified by the hadith that i gave earlier that is narrated by Aisha raa and made sahih by Bukhari and Muslim. i hope that this one major ruling by one of the 4 madhabs is evidence enough of the validity of this ruling and justification that this rillin is not of my own making but a ruling which has some of the deepest roots in islamic history.

salams
Br. mohamad

Why try and derive your own rulings when there have been many, many scholars who have looked at this issue in the past and have issued their own rulings?


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#10 maimat

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:40 PM

Apologies, from your post it seems to me that you had come to your own conclusions.

I love playing sports of all sorts, and I've had no problem with awrah. 3/4 shorts aren't hard to come by.

Quick search on the topic led me to this article:

Why Muslims Follow Madhabs?

The size and nature of this knowledge necessitate that the non-specialist use adab or "proper respect" towards the scholars of fiqh when he finds a hadith, whether in Bukhari or elsewhere, that ostensibly contradicts the schools of fiqh. A non-scholar, for example, reading through Sahih al-Bukhari will find the hadith that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) bared a thigh on the ride back from Khaybar (Bukhari, 1.103–4). And he might imagine that the four madhhabs or "legal schools"—Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi‘i, and Hanbali—were mistaken in their judgment that the thigh is ‘awra or "nakedness that must be covered."

But in fact there are a number of other hadiths, all of them well authenticated (hasan) or rigorously authenticated (sahih) that prove that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) explicitly commanded various Sahaba to cover the thigh because it was nakedness. Hakim reports that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) saw Jarhad in the mosque wearing a mantle, and his thigh became uncovered, so the Prophet told him, "The thigh is part of one’s nakedness" (al-Mustadrak), of which Hakim said, "This is a hadith whose chain of transmission is rigorously authenticated (sahih)," which Imam Dhahabi confirmed (ibid.). Imam al-Baghawi records the sahih hadith that "the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) passed by Ma‘mar, whose two thighs were exposed, and told him, ‘O Ma‘mar, cover your two thighs, for the two thighs are nakedness’" (Sharh al-sunna 9.21). And Ahmad ibn Hanbal records that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "When one of you marries [someone to] his servant or hired man, let him not look at his nakedness, for what is below his navel to his two knees is nakedness" (Ahmad, 2.187), a hadith with a well authenticated (hasan) chain of transmission. The mujtahid Imams of the four schools knew these hadiths, and joined between them and the Khaybar hadith in Bukhari by the methodological principle that: "An explicit command in words from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is given precedence over an action of his." Why?


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#11 moekalsoon

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:47 PM

salams, its ok, i agree with you you can play with 3/4 shorts, but sometimes its makes playing very difficult, also for professional athletes it becomes a necessity to wear shorter clothes to increase their performance so 3/4 pants are very limited in their ability.

salams

Apologies, from your post it seems to me that you had come to your own conclusions.

I love playing sports of all sorts, and I've had no problem with awrah. 3/4 shorts aren't hard to come by.

Quick search on the topic led me to this article:


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#12 moekalsoon

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:59 PM

salams again, i just read the quote that you put down, just wanted to say that dont forget that Imam Malik bin anas is the orginator of the maliki schools of thought and is also the author of the book al muwatta, and that his conclusion that i have written and provided proof for also is from one of his rulings, so for him having known these hadith and having known other hadith too, he had come to a concious and educated decision and conclusion to release such a fatwa. so even though i agree with your quote that there are other hadith that say other wise, there is also many hadith which support this ruling, one must also take into consideration the context of the hadith which rebutle this ruling, if when the 2 men in question in the hadith had exposed their thighs but also managed to make their privates visible then that would be a different story all together, dont forget that to arabs, even today, underwear is a taboo and pants and shorts, which are able to conceal the private parts have only been around for a couple of hundred years almost 1000 years after the time of the prophet PBUH, so to the arabs of that time exposing the thigh also meant exposing the privates due to the nature of their clothes, the abayah, so what im trying to say is that the context of the hadith is very important in making these conclusions, so when you look at the hadith in Bukhari in which the Prophet Muhamamd PBUH exposed his thighs on sveral occasions it is evident that it was exposed in a way that did not expose his private parts, ie, lying down, on the back of the horse with slight exposure, as comparefd to high exposure to the extent where the privates are almost or are exposed.

i hope this makes sense.

salams.

Apologies, from your post it seems to me that you had come to your own conclusions.

I love playing sports of all sorts, and I've had no problem with awrah. 3/4 shorts aren't hard to come by.

Quick search on the topic led me to this article:

Why Muslims Follow Madhabs?


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#13 Ibn Tarek

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 01:17 PM

moe. Im sorry man. speedos do not pass the test. Do you know the meaning of protecting and covering? hijab? awrah? etc... it's a fairly simple concept. There is no way you can say speedos are fine. Imagine your own female family members wearing the equivalent for women and then tell me its ok.
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#14 moekalsoon

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:04 PM

moe. Im sorry man. speedos do not pass the test. Do you know the meaning of protecting and covering? hijab? awrah? etc... it's a fairly simple concept. There is no way you can say speedos are fine. Imagine your own female family members wearing the equivalent for women and then tell me its ok.


Salams brother,

I am not saying anything at all in regards to women and their awrah these hadith and ruling only apply to men. your argument does not hold in this case, the definition of protecting ur privates simply means to protect them from commiting sin with rgards to sexual intercourse, which is another thing all together. Concealing means to hid your privates, and the speedo does do that, it hides your private parts from direct sight, it conceals them, and because they are covered from sight and your are on guard towards them being revealed and your are not committing unlawful actions with them then u have protected urself too, so again according to the definition of the words you stated the speedo still meets those requirements. Once again i am not endorsing them but i am simply making a statement that they hold under this ruling for those people that are required to wear them for their sports. If you think about it then its pretty similar to footy shortd just slightly shorter

Please excuse my poor spelling and grammar, i am typing this message on my phone and it is very difficult to be precise.
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#15 alaq

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:14 PM

The posted hadith can be understood in different ways. Two explanations I have heard are:
1.) The part of the leg showing was not part of the Awrah. The Shaykh who said this is a Shaffi who believes that above the knee is awrah.
2.) Uthman (ra) sat on opposite the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) where the others sat next to him where they could not see the exposed part.

Anyway this is beside the point when we take fiqh from the ulama and not single hadith.

Sport is mubah (possibly mustahab) add a haram element and the hukm changes.
Its like saying, playing rugby league is halal but not if its a all mens team vs an all ladies team.
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#16 muslimeh

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:16 PM

What I don't get it that it is not necessary to play any of these sports.

A female convert might love dancing ballet but it is something she cannot continue in public.
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#17 Sam

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:18 PM

I've never heard that something being makruh is a justification to do it.
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#18 alaq

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:21 PM

I've never heard that something being makruh is a justification to do it.


I am quite sure that the Malki position is that covering the thighs is obligatory in front of men.
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#19 macaway

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:26 PM

Any thoughs on the below topic:

Salams Brothers, I have recently come across an authentic hadith which gives us some leancacy with the awrah so that we can play sports with the right gear without sinning because of possible awrah esposure.

Here it is: in accordance with a sahih hadith narrated by aisha (raa) and classified as sahih by Bukhari and Muslim and ruled on by Imam malik, the prophet PBUH was once lying down in his home with his feet up and his thighs were exposed, Abu Baka (ra) knocked, the prophet said enter and he remained seated as he was, with his thighs exposed, then Umar ra knocked and he said enter still remaining in that position, then uthman (ra) knocked, then the prophet sat up and adjusted his clothes, once they left Aisha raa said, why did u adjust ur self when uthman entered, He PBUH said how can i not be shy infront of the man whom the angels are shy infront of.


From this hadith the Imam Malik and scholars have stated that the thigh is a soft awarah and only makruh at most, the only parts that are haram (forbidden) tp expose are the private parts (the genitals). this can also be proven by the verses from the quran which incite men to cover their awrah which then refers to their private parts, and many verses in the quran all refer to MEN PROTECTING THEIR PRIVATE PARTS, MEN CONCEALING THEIR PRIVATE PARTS, etc..


therefore given the above evidence, men would be allowed to become surf life savers and wear speedos if need be, as they can play footy and afl in those shorts as well as they can swim in a swim team in a speedo uniform or play water polo on a team (uniform is a speedo).


Because of these sahih hadith it is evident that we as muslims are not limited in anyways in contributing and particiapting with the non-muslims of this country, we have a responsibility to be the best we can be in this country and to the people of this country and contribute as much as we can to the development of this nation and its people, as only through proper akhlak and proper character do we even stand a chance at surviving in this nation or in any nation in the world even our own. this is what the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has ordered us to do.


Salams

Br. mohamad



Salam,

Could you please clear one elementary factor to this message for me? Is this your view on the matter or your interpretation of hadith? Or was it derived from someone else or another Scholar?

I am focusing on that since reading a hadith and deriving a hikum (ruling) from it is not that simple. There are a numerous amount of elements that need to be considered before deriving a ruling. These things are better left for scholars or people of knowledge.

There exist some ahadith that on face value seem to contradict themselves, however if you delve into their authenticity, their context, explanation from scholars and other background information then they make more sense. On some cases it is very clear to interpret the ruling from a hadith however in this instance you are performing what is know to be (Qiyas) or what people refer to as analogical reasoning and applying it to the context of your issue (which is Male Awrah and Sports).

An example of Qiyas is deriving the ruling that consuming prohibited drugs (such as ecstasy, ice etc...) is Haram based on a previous ruling such as drinking wine. Clearly such drugs were not present at the time of the prophet so a clear cut ruling naming such drugs could not be found. Rather the scholars derive the intended meaning from the original ruling and apply it to the modern day example.

In conclusion, special attention needs to be taken when issuing such a Ruling or Fatwa. Various steps need to be taken before reaching the findings.

I hope this could help you in this instance and future. I would strongly suggest that you present this Hadith along your understanding of it to a sound Sheikh or a Scholar and discuss the matter further.

Salam
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#20 Sam

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:27 PM

I'm don't know a lot about Maliki fiqh... maybe it's a good time for a plug then: :lol:

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#21 Astral

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:35 PM

Um, where is the female in that hadith (besides the prophet's wife)?

BTW, a while back this doctor on TV was speaking on mens and womens health.
He explained that one of the major causes for male impotency and other related illnesses is overheating of that region, thus such cases are more prevalent in men who work in places as bakeries, factories, or men whose work involves a lot of sitting.
On the other hand, for women, it is the complete opposite - not enough heating.
So, he advised against parents wrapping up their sons with layers of blankets, or not keeping theirdaughters warm enough.

I haven’t researched his claims but it makes sense for men to be wearing light clothing during high intensity activity.
Though, I think having the right material is also important. And with the wide array of materials now available, i dont think there is a reason to strip down almost naked. Let's not forget about skin cancer...
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#22 cheesegirl

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:26 PM

Wouldn't half the guys backside be showing anyway if he wore speedos? How is this covering his private parts?

Honestly I can not see how someone can jump from a hadith about the prophet exposing part of his thigh to speedos being permissible!
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#23 FatBoyMuslim

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:40 PM

Honestly I can not see how someone can jump from a hadith about the prophet exposing part of his thigh to speedos being permissible!


justifying bs is the in-thing these days

#24 moekalsoon

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:52 PM

Salams all, once again im not making this up as i go, this is an authentic ruling made in imama maliks al muwatta fiqh book, and to the brother who stated that the sahaba did not see the prophets pbuh's thigh , the hadith states that his thigh was exposed, also the other hadith from sahih bukhari and muslim of the prophet pbuh exposing his thigh on the was back from khaybr also states that his thigh was exposed. So the hadith is explicit when it comes to whether or not his thigh was exposed. I have already stated the ruliing is not of my own and is that of scholars with far more knowledge than i have and most of u too. With regards to hair on your bottom, since when is hair haram to be seen, the speedo covers that area pretty well preventing hair being seen, once again i am not condoning its use but what i am saying is that is that it can be used when necessary, an to the brother inregards to this hadith and speedos, the whole issue against speedos is that it reveals too much of the thigh and thus people dont like it, but since the hadith somewhat allows tge exposure of thighs given that the privates are not exposed, it is a sutle justification for speedo use by people who wish to wear them, and to the person in regards makruh being a justification, makruh means that is disliked right but because there ia no out law of it it is still permissible if you need to, so thats why i see it as a justifiction as iy doesnot put a person beyond the bounds of islam.
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#25 Sam

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:18 PM

Brother what you have is a hadith, not a ruling, and you seem to be confusing the two. Before a hadith can be turned into a ruling it needs to go through a process (ijtihad via usul ul-fiqh) and you seem to be skipping that part. For a start, all material related to awrah would need to be examined, not just one hadith. Furthermore, one needs to understand the conditions and methods of performing qiyas before one can jump from a hadith which outwardly indicates that the Prophet's thigh was exposed, to it being permissible (even if disliked) to it being permissible to reveal the awrah for non-essential things like sport.
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#26 FatBoyMuslim

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:20 PM

if you need to


the thing is dear brother that fun speedoing is different than a valid shar'iy 'need to' , regardless of madhab opinions. if we took every rukhsa that is available to justify anything we feel like, religion will become a toy for lunatics and people of hawaa.

i assure you that my madhab says a person's salah will be valid 100% naked too, but you have to be stranded on a deserted island, you should have lost your baggage and the clothes on your own body should have been pulled out by a chasing shark, and when you finally make it to the island, it shouldn't have enough leaves on trees that you may cover your body, or if you do have enough leaves, the animals will try to eat them off of you and injure you.

rukhsas are pretty cool, ay?

#27 pepe

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:25 PM

I'm don't know a lot about Maliki fiqh... maybe it's a good time for a plug then: :lol:

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Sunnipath are now offering Maliki fiqh courses with Sheikh Sulayman Van Ael.

Woot thanks :dance:
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#28 Shamsy

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:33 PM

I'm pretty sure Imam Malik was not condoning the use of speedos- perhaps something like shorts that are a little above the knees would be the upper limit of what he said.

You absolutely cannot take a cm of thigh and turn that into a meter!

Your kidding yourself if you think its ok to wear speedos. That is haram to the nth degree. Not only is the entire thigh showing but so is the part from the belly button to the speedo rim and then the entire shape of their private parts! That doesn't have the same weighing as a bit of thigh. Please don't make such flamboyant statements such as that.

If there is a sport where you must wear such attire- Do you think any of the scholars will say oh yeah thats ok! go play in your speedo! its all A ok! Off course not. they'd most likely say find an alternative.
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#29 Shamsy

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:35 PM

the thing is dear brother that fun speedoing is different than a valid shar'iy 'need to' , regardless of madhab opinions. if we took every rukhsa that is available to justify anything we feel like, religion will become a toy for lunatics and people of hawaa.

i assure you that my madhab says a person's salah will be valid 100% naked too, but you have to be stranded on a deserted island, you should have lost your baggage and the clothes on your own body should have been pulled out by a chasing shark, and when you finally make it to the island, it shouldn't have enough leaves on trees that you may cover your body, or if you do have enough leaves, the animals will try to eat them off of you and injure you.

rukhsas are pretty cool, ay?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL! OmG! best story ever! :lol:
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#30 Astral

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:42 PM

Here it is: in accordance with a sahih hadith narrated by aisha (raa) and classified as sahih by Bukhari and Muslim and ruled on by Imam malik, the prophet PBUH was once lying down in his home with his feet up and his thighs were exposed, Abu Baka (ra) knocked, the prophet said enter and he remained seated as he was, with his thighs exposed, then Umar ra knocked and he said enter still remaining in that position, then uthman (ra) knocked, then the prophet sat up and adjusted his clothes, once they left Aisha raa said, why did u adjust ur self when uthman entered, He PBUH said how can i not be shy infront of the man whom the angels are shy infront of.



* Lying down in his home
* with his wife in the house
* the person entering being another male


How does one draw the conclusion from the above that wearing speedos in public - in front of everyone - is ok?

Women are allowed to show bits of themselves in front of other women too.
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