[muslimeh]

ICRA Youth Centre Inc, on Dec 19 2006, 12:22 PM, said:

Asked Arnott's myself. Their reply is as follows:

Thankyou for contacting Arnott's.

Please be advised that small amounts of alcohol based flavours (like
vanilla essence) are added to some sweet biscuits. We know alcohol is
sensitive to heat and we believe the alcohol is lost during baking, but
there is a slight possibility that trace amounts could still be present in
the finished product.

Regards
Marnie
Consumer Contact Centre
[B]

Personally, no more Tim Tam's for me.

geez.
why dont they use halal vanilla essence.

[Sarah]

lies! secrets and lies!!!!!


are u sayign monte carlos and timtams have traces of alcohol??

[Sarah]

blackforest timtams... teh red ones.... my favourite!!! ...

This post has been edited by Sarah: 27 December 2006 - 10:56 PM

[Ali_C]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo........ ....................................................

I'm okay now, well thats it then no more tim tams for me!!!

[Sarah]

i feel your pain

[Aqidah_police]

R I P Tim tams ill miss you to much.

[Sam]

Assalamualaikum,

If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps a few letters to Arnotts telling them of your decision to stop buying their products may not hurt. If they get enough of them, they may act.

wasalaam
sam

[FlyinGenie]

i just don't get it. i mean, they make tim tams to export to muslim countries that are certified halal. i doubt it would be hard to just make them ALL halal.

i'm upset and i need a tim tam to make me feel better, but i can't have one.....waaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Sam]

FlyinGenie, on Dec 28 2006, 11:16 AM, said:

i just don't get it.  i mean, they make tim tams to export to muslim countries that are certified halal.  i doubt it would be hard to just make them ALL halal. 

From memory, the Halal Tim Tams I bought in Malaysia were not made in Australia, perhaps someone else can confirm. Remember, Arnotts is no longer an Australian owned company.

wasalaam
sam

[FlyinGenie]

Sam, on Dec 28 2006, 09:57 AM, said:

From memory, the Halal Tim Tams I bought in Malaysia were not made in Australia, perhaps someone else can confirm. Remember, Arnotts is no longer an Australian owned company.

wasalaam
sam

the one's i bought were...but now i'm not so sure...

[Shadower]

Arnott's Tim Tams are made for every part of the world and they make them different to suit the peoples tastes everywhere.

So for Muslim countries it is made in a halal manner, Israel they make it kosher. So the ones in Malaysia are halal (or any other Muslim country). But in Australia it is made for the tastes of the general Australian population.

If the halal tim tams are manufactured here and not in an Asian country then the Islamic community should be able to organize a supply for Islamic stores here. (Like what happened with Villies Meat Pies though I wish it was Four & Twenty they also make halal pies for export).

[Abdul Rahman]

Good news. For the ahnaf.
Alcohol is not considered to be haram if the alcohol was not made with the intention of intoxication. ie. if made to dissolve vanilla essence as a cooking ingredient is the purpose of the alcohol as in Tim Tams, then this is OK.

[TAS``]

Abdul Rahman, on Apr 9 2007, 08:45 PM, said:

Good news. For the ahnaf.
Alcohol is not considered to be haram if the alcohol was not made with the intention of intoxication. ie. if made to dissolve vanilla essence as a cooking ingredient is the purpose of the alcohol as in Tim Tams, then this is OK.

A tad bit off mark dude. Not haram if it is used as a catalyst AND in a percentage that would not cause intoxication once the final product is delivered, regardless of the quantity consumed (so if you have 7000 TimTams and still dont get a buzz, you're good to go).

Just saying "not with the intention of intoxication" seems ok but something that was made so with no intention of intoxication but still has alcohol in it in its pure form and/or in a sufficient enough percentage to give the person a buzz would still be haram (unless its a medicine and theres no other alternative). Most beverages and other food products manufacturing processes do involve alcohol somewhere or the other. It aint just TimTams.

This post has been edited by TAS``: 09 April 2007 - 08:59 PM

[Abdul Rahman]

Thanks for the more precise explanation TAS.
I was only relaying information given to my wife from a ustadha and should have probably waited until I had more precision before posting.

[TAS``]

Abdul Rahman, on Apr 9 2007, 09:59 PM, said:

Thanks for the more precise explanation TAS.
I was only relaying information given to my wife from a ustadha and should have probably waited until I had more precision before posting.

No worries bro. Didnt mean to be pedantic, Alhamdulillah you had a good intention and were right in concept, just the pedantic play on words when relaying information needed to be precise to leave no room for doubt thats all

[Abdul Rahman]

Very important correction bro.
I wouldn't want the responsibility for people applying the implicit reasoning in a wrong way based on my incorrect presentation.
Jazak.

[muslimeh]

TAS``, on Apr 9 2007, 08:53 PM, said:

A tad bit off mark dude. Not haram if it is used as a catalyst AND in a percentage that would not cause intoxication once the final product is delivered, regardless of the quantity consumed (so if you have 7000 TimTams and still dont get a buzz, you're good to go).

so who is going to volunteer to test this out? (ie a non-muslim member )

[Niche]

muslimeh, on Apr 9 2007, 11:51 PM, said:

so who is going to volunteer to test this out? (ie a non-muslim member )

I'll go 6999 to keep it on the halal side

[TAS``]

Niche, on Apr 10 2007, 12:53 AM, said:

I'll go 6999 to keep it on the halal side 

I thot you were a health freak?!

[AbuAnna]

ICRA Youth Centre Inc, on Dec 19 2006, 12:22 PM, said:

Asked Arnott's myself. Their reply is as follows:

Thankyou for contacting Arnott's.

Please be advised that small amounts of alcohol based flavours (like
vanilla essence) are added to some sweet biscuits. We know alcohol is
sensitive to heat and we believe the alcohol is lost during baking, but
there is a slight possibility that trace amounts could still be present in
the finished product.

Regards
Marnie
Consumer Contact Centre
[B]

Personally, no more Tim Tam's for me.

The minute amounts of alcohol appear to be in the vanilla essence.
Vanilla essence is in almost all sweet foods isn't it?
That makes an awful lot of non halal food that is on the market, not just Tim Tams.

Could it be that Arnotts have included this statement as a disclaimer to stop them getting sued, just in case?

[Abdul Rahman]

Quote

In the Hanafi School, the following type of (ethyl-based) alcohol is not filth nor prohibited:



-      When the alcohol is not consumable or not intended for consumption in its essence. This most often includes synthetic alcohol, and is commonly used in products for external use, e.g., creams. So alcohol that is consumable but is used in a small amount in food but where its purpose is not to consume the alcohol itself (e.g., for the alcohol to act as a catalyst), is still prohibited, because regardless of the small amount or its catalytic use the alcohol is still consumable as Khamr. Alcohol used in food is often NOT synthetic or denatured, but is natural ethyl-alcohol- Khamr.

-      When the non-consumable alcohol (synthetic or denatured), not intended for consumption as alcohol, and it does not intoxicate. So, non-consumable alcohol when used in an amount that does intoxicate, is prohibited.



It would be incorrect to suggest as a general statement that alcohol used in small amounts or when its intention is not to intoxicate, is permissible. In fact regardless of amount, if the alcohol is intoxicating, it is prohibited. The position with the ruling on natural ethyl-alcohol is clear. The issue is however with synthetic alcohol, which has two issues to contend with:



i)    Whether it is intended for consumption as alcohol (most likely not)

ii)    Whether the amount used, is intoxicating (depends)



Imam Abu Hanifah, may Allah be pleased with him, and later Hanafi Scholars of the modern times building on the amazing foresight of Imam Abu Hanifah, concluded that alcohol that was used where the intention was not for intoxication and in small amount (that amount that would not intoxicate) such that its “molecular” structure would be different upon cooking, would be permissible. Further, the rule in the Hanafi School for use is precautionary and merely permissible (mubah), with a lean due to precaution towards Makruh at-Tanzeeh.



The caution that needs to be applied in the case of Tim Tams is one of the kind of alcohol used and its amount. Let me say that Al-Ghazzali Centre is currently getting the Tim Tams biscuits tested to get an independent food technologist data on the ingredients. The preliminary information is as follows:



-      The alcohol used is not synthetic and is a natural ethyl-based extract.

-      The amount used is quite small, in fact certainly not intoxicating (even if someone of an average build consumed a whole packet of Tim Tams...)



In light of this preliminary information, the assessment on the basis of Shari’ah based on Hanafi Fiqh are as follows:



i)            The alcohol used regardless of amount constitutes the definition of Khamr. As such it would impermissible to consume the product until it is definite that the product does not use natural ethyl-alcohol. I believe our testing will give us substantive evidence either way, and will keep you informed on this.

ii)            Subject to (i), the product is not permissible to consume, regardless of the amount. In the event that tests and clarifications of the manufacturer verify that the alcohol used is synthetic, the product would then definitely be permissible.



Insha Allah that helps, and you are welcome to share this publicly.





Was Salaam

Afroz Ali

This post has been edited by Abdul Rahman: 10 April 2007 - 09:02 PM

[dewberry]

Salaam,

This sounds similar to the Streets Ice cream situation (yep, those yummy Magnums). The gelatine they use is halal accredited and states "halal gelatine" on the ingredients, so was happily eating a magnum till i found out the following from their website (after a sister advised me she refuses to eat Streets icecream, i got confused saying the gelatine is halal, but she said, thats not the problem...)

http://www.streets.c...x.asp#Question4

There is a small amount of alcohol present. Alcohol is a very important component of many flavours used by us - especially natural flavours. It is used to extract the flavour components from various natural ingredients. For example, vanilla flavour from vanilla beans, or strawberry flavours from strawberries. As a result there is always some alcohol present in these flavours when they are added to ice cream. Much of this alcohol would be evaporated during processing, but a small amount may remain. However, the level of alcohol in the final product is extremely low (much less than 0.1%). In some cases there are alternative flavours we could use, and where applicable we do. However, in the majority of cases we tend to use the alcohol based material for the following reasons: 1. They are usually natural flavours. 2. They have a far superior flavour delivery and are of higher quality. 3. There is no significant reason for not using them. Most, if not all, of our products will have these small levels of alcohol in them.

I asked a Imam about it, is it haram to eat Streets icecream, and he told me that scholars have two schools of thought basically, some say its ok to eat it since it such a minute amount of alcohol and used as preservative etc, and the amount is so tiny its insignificant than others say its haram, because we have other altneratives out there that do not put alchol in their flavours as preservative etc, and that no matter how much tiny the alchol amount is, its still haram...

so basically personally am confused about the situation, whether halal or haram

[platypuspieau1]

This is defo one for imam-shopping. Find a scholar who will tell you alcohol at a level of one in a squillion parts, & not intended as an intoxicant, is not haram. It's un-Australian to come between a citizen & his or her TimTams.

[Nadzz]

I dont know that i was using Tim Tam before May ALLAH forgive us all. AMIN

[Ibn Tarek]

so where are we at with this?

haram?

i was told that small traces which cannot get you intoxicated was permissible if something like 5 litres couldnt get you intoxicated. 5 litres of tim tams?

[platypuspieau1]

Ibn Tarek, on Mar 19 2008, 02:44 PM, said:

so where are we at with this?

haram?

i was told that small traces which cannot get you intoxicated was permissible if something like 5 litres couldnt get you intoxicated. 5 litres of tim tams?

Bring 'em on! I will be the guinea pig.

[amats]

Come on! Heaps of foods (vinegar, bread even though its baked) have small traces of alcohol in them and we don't go witch-hunting about them do we??

I know theres that hadith if something makes you intoxicated even a small amount is haram, but what is the limit for a "small amount"?

I remember some news a few months back about a controversial fatwa by Sheikh Al-Qardawi who said that 0.5% is maximum w/w but that sounds kind of a lot.

Who knows.

[pepe]

^ the best course of action is agree to disagree. since for some people 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% alcohol is too much.
its nice to know that minute % of alcohol in our foods is the biggest problems with the ummah.

[Ibn Tarek]

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Jibaly who is a physisist as well explained (and he used an arabic term that sounded all traditionally and fiqhy lol) that products which fundamentally go through a transformation are not actually that product. He advised us that gelatine was one of these products and vinegar another (if they came from alchohol or pig, etc).

I think it goes something like, we could turn our own flesh and juices into wine if we used the appropriate process, but the product is obviously totally different from the origin.

However, using these products may mean that you are supporting the use of these haram ingredients. demand by consumption. ?

however, Jeffcott St mosque was selling some of the strawberry timtams a few weeks back. isn't that as good a source as any to get our harams and halals? you'd think so.

[muslima]

Can someone find the hadiith where it says small amounts of alcohol are ok please? everyones giving there own opinions but no proof!