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#1 AbuSufyaan

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 01:08 AM

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks
Richard Kerbaj
October 26, 2006

THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals.
In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years".

"But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked.

The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney's southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years' jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves."

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

"Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said.

Ms Hage-Ali said she was "disgusted and offended" by Shiek Hilali's comments. "I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia's Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense."

Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about "adultery and theft", a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian.

Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as "meat" and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk.

He told The Australian the message he intended to convey was: "If a woman who shows herself off, she is to blame ... but a man should be able to control himself". He said if a woman is "covered and respectful" she "demands respect from a man". "But when she is cheap, she throws herself at the man and cheapens herself."

Sheik Hilali also insisted his references to the Sydney gang rapes were to illustrate that Skaf was guilty and worthy of receiving such a harsh sentence.

Waleed Ali said Sheik Hilali was "normalising immoral sexual behaviour" by comparing women to meat and men to animals and entirely blaming women for being victims.

"It's basically saying that the immoral response of men to women who are not fully covered is as natural and as inevitable as the response of an animal tempted by food," he said.

"But (unlike animals) men are people who have moral responsibilities and the capability in engaging in moral action."

Revelation of the mufti's comments comes after he criticised Mr Howard last month in The Australian for saying a minority of migrant men mistreated their women. Sheik Hilali said such a minority was found in all faiths. "Those who don't respect their women are not true Muslims."

"There's a small percentage found among all religions, but we don't recognise ours as Muslims."

Aziza Abdel-Halim said Sheik Hilali's remarks during Ramadan were inaccurate and upsetting to the Muslim community.

"They are below and beyond any comment (and) do not deserve any consideration."

http://www.theaustra...437-601,00.html

Edited by AbuSufyaan, 26 October 2006 - 01:09 AM.

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#2 Mowlana Vector

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 02:46 AM

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks

Allahu'alam!!!

Either another :wall: case of Shk. Faiz circa 2005, OR (yet) one of those ubiquitous 'lost in translation' gems courtesy of Uncle Murdoch's Holt street (Arabist) Headquarters... :unsure: :roll:

May the truth prevail soon, Insha'Allah!!!
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#3 Legally Insane

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 02:53 AM

I think weve learnt enough to know that kerbaj is filthy rotten lier. Subhannalah we MUST take legal action. This can not continue forever. What the hell are they doing? you cant just defame people like that. C'mon people. Lets do something someone talk to the sheikh, suggest something to AFIC, i sent them an email but they didnt bother replying....
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#4 Webster

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 07:09 AM

This is going to be bigger than ben hur.
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#5 Webster

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 07:10 AM

Is there evidence around that he has said this?
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#6 Sam

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 07:46 AM

[bq]"O you who believe! If a Faasiq (liar evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done"

[al-Hujuraat 49:6] [/bq]


We know Kerbaj is a faasiq. Unfortunately, many people in the community are going to read this and then fall into sin by beleiving it, or worse, repeating it.

wasalaam
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#7 tr3x

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:01 AM

[bq]"O you who believe! If a Faasiq (liar evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done"

[al-Hujuraat 49:6] [/bq]
We know Kerbaj is a faasiq. Unfortunately, many people in the community are going to read this and then fall into sin by beleiving it, or worse, repeating it.

wasalaam
sam

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Was anybody here present at that sermon and can they shed any light on it.

I am confident that Sheikh Taj did not say those things but if he did I would be very disappointed- so much so I think his position would become untennable.

Inshallah Kerbaj would be proven for the fraud and liar he is.
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#8 Webster

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:18 AM

Was anybody here present at that sermon and can they shed any light on it.

I am confident that Sheikh Taj did not say those things but if he did I would be very disappointed- so much so I think his position would become untennable.

Inshallah Kerbaj would be proven for the fraud and liar he is.

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Kerbaj is a liar. I don't believe a word he writes. He always tries to creat disunity in the Islamic community by fabricating lies and deceiving the Australian public. Insha'Allah he will be shown for the liar that he is.

It never ceaces to amaze me at how ready journalists and politicians are ready to jump on the lets hate Muslims bandwagon without the faintest shred of evidence from the report.
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#9 tr3x

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:24 AM

Kerbaj is a liar. I don't believe a word he writes. He always tries to creat disunity in the Islamic community by fabricating lies and deceiving the Australian public. Insha'Allah he will be shown for the liar that he is.

It never ceaces to amaze me at how ready journalists and politicians are ready to jump on the lets hate Muslims bandwagon without the faintest shred of evidence from the report.

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I agree with you, but what we must do is prove him to be the liar that he is.

I wasn't there so I wouldn't know what was said, so what we need is a transcript of what was said so that we can prove what is alleged hasn't been said.
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#10 Webster

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:27 AM

I agree with you, but what we must do is prove him to be the liar that he is.

I wasn't there so I wouldn't know what was said, so what we need is a transcript of what was said so that we can prove what is alleged hasn't been said.

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true, or he has to out his source
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#11 Sam

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:05 AM

The emails we have been receiving on this issue are quite disgusting, to say the least.

If these Australians that emailed us are out to prove they are above these alleged comments, they're not doing a very good job of conveying that. Foul mouthed, ignorant morons is a better description of them if you ask me.

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#12 GreenOz

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:05 AM

Richard Kerbaj is a sinister person and a person with no ethics indeed!
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#13 GreenOz

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:07 AM

cant we flood his email?
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#14 AliG

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:11 AM

still waiting to hear, what the Sk actually said.
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#15 Hunter

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:18 AM

Was just listening on ABC radio to an interview with Iktimal Hage-Ali who says she has heard the tape made at the time. She made it very clear that what had been reported him as saying is what he said. She seemed to be quite horrified by his comments.

Now, I dont know how well respected Ms Hage-Ali is within the Muslim community, or whether she has her own axe to grind, but she seemed like a lovely, honest, well spoken and concerned young woman.
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#16 Webster

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:27 AM

Was just listening on ABC radio to an interview with Iktimal Hage-Ali who says she has heard the tape made at the time.  She made it very clear that what had been reported him as saying is what he said.  She seemed to be quite horrified by his comments.

Now, I dont know how well respected Ms Hage-Ali is within the Muslim community, or whether she has her own axe to grind, but she seemed like a lovely, honest, well spoken and concerned young woman.

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I for one don't know her, nor do i recognise her as a spokesperson for the community. I'm sure she is a lovely lady who is articulate and honest... once again I don't know her. Where is the recording available?
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#17 The defender of Islam

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:49 AM

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks
Richard Kerbaj
October 26, 2006

http://www.theaustra...437-601,00.html

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The journalist Richard Kerbaj is nothing but a liar. He lives on making people hate Islam and Muslims divided. Remember when he did it to the president of AFIC who took his comments out of context that he stated that "Muhammad was not perfect". The doctor was taken out of context and his words were misused in many ways.

And another thing is how did he record the sheiks sermon? He must have sent someone into the mosque with a tape recorder and secretly record what he said, how sinister is that?

I don't know who this Iktimal Hage-Ali but she is wrong in attacking the Mufti in that she has fell for the trap of division. She should have phoned the sheik make sure what he has said was correct than she can talk. But she does not represent anyone I have never herd of her, she has no right to make a statement.
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#18 Webster

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:01 AM

Richard Kerbaj is a sinister person and a person with no ethics indeed!

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He speaks Arabic and seems to be used by News Corp to attend Mosques and listen or translate sermons.

What I don't know is how much Arabic does he know? I have met many supposed Arabic speakers that can not even understand a simple Arabic movie or news bulletin. Their only ability in understanding Arabic is when it is spoken in a slang manner only suitable for cafes or hanging out on the street curb. Sheikh Hilali's Arabic is classical and refined.

Lost in translation perhaps? I don't know, we need to listen to the evidence.
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#19 Sabrinee

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:02 AM

Cleric blames women's attire for attacksThursday Oct 26 06:57 AEST

Women who do not cover up are similar to abandoned "meat" making them responsible for sexual attacks, a senior Islamic cleric has said.

Sheik Taj Aldin Alhilali has outraged female Muslim leaders with comments he made during a Ramadan sermon to 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, News Limited newspapers report.

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" the sheik asked.


"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (islamic headdress), no problem would have occurred."

He also alluded to the Sydney rapes in 2000 where four women were separately gang-raped by a group of young Muslim men, including Bilal Skaf, who originally received a 55-year sentence, later reduced.

He said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and inappropriate clothes, "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years," News Limited reports.

The Sheik went on to say women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men and when it comes to adultery the responsibility falls on the woman 90 per cent of the time.

He defended the sermon about adultery and theft when contacted by News Limited, which obtained and translated a recording of the 17-minute talk.

But he did clarify his reference to the Sydney gang rapes and said Skaf was guilty and deserved such a sentence.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali does not wear a hijab and said it is not worn to prevent rape or harassment and it is up to "males to learn how to control themselves".

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, echoed the young adviser's statements, saying she was "disgusted and offended" by the Shiek's statements.

http://news.ninemsn.....aspx?id=120245
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#20 Abdul Rahman

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:05 AM

And another thing is how did he record the sheiks sermon? He must have sent someone into the mosque with a tape recorder and secretly record what he said, how sinister is that?

Sinister or not, is it true? It is also possible that a Muslim recorded the talk as so many of us do doing Ramadan in particular.

But she does not represent anyone I have never herd of her, she has no right to make a statement.

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If she did hear a genuine recording (as Hunter reports that Ms. Hage-Ali alleges) and understood it, why can't she comment on it? Why is that only "leaders" about whom none of us can agree upon anyway have the sole right of comment?

What counts is not whether she represents us or not. Is her report of the Sheik's alleged comments credible and can she provide proof.
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#21 Sabrinee

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:14 AM

Was just listening on ABC radio to an interview with Iktimal Hage-Ali who says she has heard the tape made at the time.  She made it very clear that what had been reported him as saying is what he said.  She seemed to be quite horrified by his comments.

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Did she read the translation or listen to the initial tape in Arabic? As webster mentioned, Sheikh Taj's Arabic is classical and refined, not just anyone of Arab background can understand the depth and the meaning of what he's saying. If he was discussing this issue in his sermon its quite likely he was misinterpreted and misrepresented-something i wouldnt put Kerbaj past doing.
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#22 Jimmy

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:22 AM

Its not the first time this guy has said outrageous and ridiculous things.

#23 The defender of Islam

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:25 AM

Sinister or not, is it true? It is also possible that a Muslim recorded the talk as so many of us do doing Ramadan in particular.
If she did hear a genuine recording (as Hunter reports that Ms. Hage-Ali alleges) and understood it, why can't she comment on it? Why is that only "leaders" about whom none of us can agree upon anyway have the sole right of comment?

What counts is not whether she represents us or not. Is her report of the Sheik's alleged comments credible and can she provide proof.

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Come on can't you read between the lines. There is a conspiracy against us Muslims you would be crazy not to see that. Why is it that these journalist don't go to other places of worship and record what they have to say? Why only the mosques? This person has probably recorded hundreds of his sermons and listened to them hours and hours looking for any mistakes he can take out of context. I am sure the Sheik had meant something else altogether. How could you trust such a rat bag as this Richard Kerbaj. His surname sounds like an Arab surname; he is probably an Egyptian Coptic or Lebanese Maronite. Some of these people hate Islam and Muslims to the core.

While I don't believe that it is a Women's fault for being raped and that the man who did it should be executed I do however ask the question would she have been raped if she had wore the hijab? It seems that the more that women decrease their clothing the more the sexual assaults increase, right or wrong? This is fact you can see it for yourself on the statistics. Since this so called sex explosion started in the 60s and when women wore less and less clothing the sexual assault crimes have indeed increased. See for yourself.

And about this women Ms. Hage-Ali whether she can provide proof or not she has no right to comment on our behalf, unless she has been elected by the Muslim community.

Wassalam.
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#24 ocean

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:30 AM

The emails we have been receiving on this issue are quite disgusting, to say the least.

If these Australians that emailed us are out to prove they are above these alleged comments, they're not doing a very good job of conveying that. Foul mouthed, ignorant morons is a better description of them if you ask me.

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it makes me wonder how you manage to say the right thing always. :clap:
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#25 tr3x

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:41 AM

A few of you need to take a few chill pills and relax.

It is good and well to label this as all lies, but at the end of the day those of us who haven't heard the sermon can't say for certainty it is.

Instead of shooting the messenger why don't you get proactive and get a copy of the sermon and then you can PROVE Kerbaj to be the liar he is.

I'm not a fan of Iktimal Hage-Ali but some of you are slamming her for condemning the comments- you know what whether or not the Sheikh made them I condemn that sort of thinking 100%.

Stop all this conspriacy hysteria and find out the truth.
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#26 JiGZ

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:43 AM

Mufti 'taken out of context'

COMMENTS by Australia's mufti in which he said women who dressed provocatively brought unwanted attention were taken out of context, his associate said today.

Sheik Taj al-Din al-Hilali used a Ramadan speech in Sydney to blame women who didn't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men.

"If you take uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" he was quoted by The Australian as saying.

Keysar Trad, the mufti's associate, today said the sheik had been talking about abstinence, fidelity and dress codes, but not rape.

"He wasn't talking about the hijab. He was talking about people who engage in extramarital sex," Mr Trad said on ABC radio.

"He's always encouraged fidelity and abstinence until people get married.

"He's talking about those people who prey on others - whether men or women - who seek to engage in sexual conduct outside of marriage and do so through alluring types of attire."

Asked to verify that the sheik had referred to women who don't wear the hijab as "uncovered meat", Mr Trad said: "From my discussions with him, the issue was not whether they wear a hijab or don't wear a hijab.

"The issue is that every society has a certain dress code, a normal dress code that people go by.
"So if somebody goes beyond that dress code, if men or women get to the stage where they dress in a manner that is provocative then these people are doing something wrong.

"He was not talking about rape."



http://www.news.com....5001028,00.html
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#27 Abdul Rahman

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:43 AM

Come on can't you read between the lines. There is a conspiracy against us Muslims you would be crazy not to see that. Why is it that these journalist don't go to other places of worship and record what they have to say? Why only the mosques? This person has probably recorded hundreds of his sermons and listened to them hours and hours looking for any mistakes he can take out of context. I am sure the Sheik had meant something else altogether. How could you trust such a rat bag as this Richard Kerbaj. His surname sounds like an Arab surname; he is probably an Egyptian Coptic or Lebanese Maronite. Some of these people hate Islam and Muslims to the core.

While I don't believe that it is a Women's fault for being raped and that the man who did it should be executed I do however ask the question would she have been raped if she had wore the hijab? It seems that the more that women decrease their clothing the more the sexual assaults increase, right or wrong? This is fact you can see it for yourself on the statistics. Since this so called sex explosion started in the 60s and when women wore less and less clothing the sexual assault crimes have indeed increased. See for yourself.

And about this women Ms. Hage-Ali whether she can provide proof or not she has no right to comment on our behalf, unless she has been elected by the Muslim community.

Wassalam.

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I am not discussing Gerbage. I don't care if he's a Maronite. You are entitled to your opinion on rape, which I personally find very objectionable.

The fact remains that there is supposed to be a recording. Is the report of Ms Hage-Ali of it's content accurate or not? The very fact that a recording exists is of benefit if the claims are false. Whether or not you consider her a valid spokesperson for the community is again irrelevant. Like the printmedia, this is also a public forum where we are expressing our opinions, what is the difference? My comment was limited to whether or not we have the right to have and express an opinion, regardless of our standing if we have accurate information.
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#28 Hunter

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:43 AM

So, the number of elderly women wearing tracksuits or heavier, more voluminous and modest styles are also 'asking to be raped'?

Like it or not, rape has always been the weapon of choice to keep women under the male thumb. At the risk of repeating myself, rape is NEVER about sex, it is about power. Some men, who are themselves victims or who are lacking in self confidence, self assertiveness and the like, rape women as a symbol of their power, the weaker the women ie. old and frail, the easier it is for these sick individuals to perceive themselves to be powerful. This is what they crave, not sex.

And think about it seriously. Whilst I don't know the statistics for rises in rape incidents. You can't look at the 60's and say 'ahh less clothing - more rapes', however you can look at the 60's and say 'ahhh women's liberation - more powerful women, decreased power to men - more rapes'. You also need to take the 'increased rape statistics' with a grain of salt. Back in the 60's, rape was hardly ever reported, these days women are more likely to report the attack, although a much higher perentage do not get reported due to the stigma.

Edited by Hunter, 26 October 2006 - 10:47 AM.

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#29 AliG

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:44 AM

I dont care who they are recording but i would really like to hear from those who have heard exactly what the Shk said.
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#30 tr3x

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:47 AM

I dont care who they are recording but i would really like to hear from those who have heard exactly what the Shk said.

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Exactly this all can be sorted out if the Sheikh can provide us with what he actually said.
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