[afroz]

Assalaam Alaikum and G'day,

Shibshib said:

Quote

I must say I am very disappointed in the response to my 500th post. Only afroz even bothered to give me anything, and even that was simply a twirl. Surely I deserve a bit more than that.

My twirl was a cool one Shibby

On a serious note, truly, your comments here on the forum do contribute to some lively discussions.

The next trip to Sydney, Abu Nawas is on me to confirm my twirl for the 500th post

Was Salaam
Afroz

[Rahma]

Myst wrote:

Quote

My point in that statement was that these people see the spinning/whirling as an act of 3ibaadah. They associate spinning with dhikr - which translates to a new form/method of worshipping Allah. So the theory is not out the window just yet..

oh well too bad, it is and its flying away with the wind, mind you not on the carpet you may think of. hmmmmm

besides who told you that they see the actual spinning as the i'badah? and how do you conclude that associating spinning with dthikr inappropriate??
what is wrong with creating new forms to worship Allah? the topic of creating new forms is widely spoken of by different schools of thoughts as being permissible providing it leads to noble ends and the means not be outside the fold of shariah - in this case dthikrullah and a permissible act of dancing.

far from it we should say that someone commit a haram or impermissible act and at the same time make dthikr, but in this case dancing has not been proven to be haram and is perfectly acceptable according to the shaf'is anyway and spinning would most certainly fall into that category since it is a dance.

please re-read and understand:

Imam Al-Nawawi said: ( with commentary by Muhammad Shirbini:) It is not prohibited to dance ((Shibrini:) which is not unlawful because it is only motions made while standing or bowing. furani and others have expressly stated that neither is it offensive, but rather is permissible, as is attested to by the hadith related in the Sahihs of Bukhari and Muslim that the prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) stood before A'isha ( Allah be well pleased with her) to screen her from view so that she could observe the Abyssinians sporting and dancing)---unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate (Mughni al-muhtaj ila ma'rif ma'ani alfaz al Minhaj(y73), 4.430)

(3) the third category consists of recommended innovations such as building hostels and schools of Sacred Law, recording the research of Islamic schools of legal thought, writing books on beneficial subjects , extensive research into fundamentals and particular applications of Sacred Law, in depth studies of arabic linguistics, the reciting of wirds by those with a sufi path (A:[size=18] OR CIRCLES OF DTHIKR IN WHICH THE MOVEMENTS OF THE PARTICPANTS INCREASES THIER REMEMBRANCE OF ALLAH

[b]ibn hazm wrote:

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I suspect however, that those practicing this act do not require any evidence at all. It is characteristic of certain sufi groups to differentiate between the "Shariah" and their "Tariqah"- the former governing "external" actions while the latter governing "inner" actions. This distinction is utterly unfounded and was invented hundereds of years after the golden age of fiqh- that of the Campanions, Tabieen, the Imams and thier students. In effect, these groups place their invented Tariqah above the ruling of the Shariah which have been formulated for centuries by hundereds of fuqaha, instead replacing it with dubious teachings of their so-called "masters".

hey genius, how many times do you ask Allah "Ihdinna Sirat Al Mustaquim" in your prayers a day? how many times does the word sirat occur in the Quran?? i suppose your willing to limit the Quran and say that sirat has ONLY ONE MEANING.

What is this sirat?

if your limited knowledge of tariqa has caused you to make such foul forgeries against ahlul turuq then i suggest you stop displaying your utter ignorance of the topic and remain quiet.

if your limited knowledge of what the sahaba practised and what the u'lama have verified from the time of the prophet pbbuh onwards as being perfectly valid has caused you to make those statements then again remain quiet.

wake up sunshine, all the fuqaha of the madthabs and shariah you speak of were part of turuq or if not then in praise of them.

We know the scholars of Shariah will teach us our Islam and the Scholars of Aquidah will teach us our Iman, but who do you suppose sunshine will teach us IHsan??? it certainly isnt the group of nowdays originating from bani Najd with black texas tea running through their veins, nor their offshoots wahabi/salafi/kahawrij.

You can rant and rave as you like but it is none other than the awliya Allah and Sufi shuyukh who have unbroken chains back to the prophet pbbuh ( unlike the contemporary wahabis who came from thin air) who teach the end of the path..... and the most noble station of Ihsan..... worshipping Allah as though you see Him and even though you see Him not, know that He sees you and all tenets associated with it.

what..... you think you can throw your comments as you please and not get answers or reactions?

take a look around you. youd have to be utterly blind to not notice that wahabism is dying as it always has and Ahlul Haq as always come up and clean the mess that they make with the brainwashing material they spread.

even in its home origin the people have revolted against it and its regimes and are now uprooting it from their society. it will only be a matter of time now before once again they are an extinct species.

[PeAcE]

Assalamau Alaaaykum

firstly i would like to thank you for your most entertaining piece i didnt whether to laugh or cry...secondly who exactly is Ahul Huq? could you kindly point out who these people are? thirdly you said shafi's find spinning permissible could you care to name the shai'f fuquah who deem such an act permissible [spinning as a form of ibaadah]....now dont go and misconstrue my requests and tell me that i have no understood what you have said and what is really going on [im sure to you I along with others are very ignorant and need to be taught] all i wish to know are there shafi scholars that deem spinning AS A FORM OF IBADAH legitimate? i mean perhaps as you said certain groups dont associate spinning as a form of ibaadah and if that is the case than so be it...but for instance and i hypothesise if such an act of spinning was regarded as a from of ibaadah is it then permissible?

in regards to what Imam Nawai said (rahimuAllah) could you please point us in the direction of the source where he actually said that? Im not trying to doubt what your saying just interested to see that myself..jazak Allah khair

I ask you to forgive me for the ignornace i have displayed in this post as im sure i have and hopefully youll be their to kindly advise me of such


jazakum Allah khairun

PeAcE

[ibn_hazm]

I will not grace the last post of Rahma with an answer, except to say that he/she is clearly indoctrinated with erroneous concepts and prejudices which deny him/her the evaluation of the issues in a clear manner. Rahma: if you feel that you can perform actions which have no basis in the Shariah that you think will bring you closer to Allah then go ahead. I ask Allah to forgive us all and unite us together in Jannah, even if we are not united in this world.

I think my discussion with Shib shib is not going anywhere, as he/she noted. If some people believe they can do actions because they feel it will increase their love for Allah (s.w.t.) but without any basis for that action except that it satisfies the "principles of the Sunnah" which are to increase taqwa- then I cannot argue with that. Indeed, no one can "condemn" any action as any action can subjectively be deemed to increase ones taqwa. I hope I do not live to see a time when these sorts of actions are practiced to such a degree that the acts of worship with a basis in the Shariah are forgotten and lost.

Laa Hawla wa laa quwata illa billah.
salamu alaikum.

[Shibshib]

Assalamu `alaikum everyone,

Yes afroz, thank you very much for your twirl. The gesture was much appreciated.

Quote

I think my discussion with Shib shib is not going anywhere, as he/she noted. If some people believe they can do actions because they feel it will increase their love for Allah (s.w.t.) but without any basis for that action except that it satisfies the "principles of the Sunnah" which are to increase taqwa- then I cannot argue with that. Indeed, no one can "condemn" any action as any action can subjectively be deemed to increase ones taqwa.

Well, I'm not sure it is as simple as that. The Shafi`i approach certainly isn't carte blanche for people to do whatever they want. However, it certainly does have some flexibility within it, a flexibility that should be respected by those who do not necessarily agree with it.

Rather, the one thing that I would hope that has come forth from this discussion is that identifying precisely what is and is not bid`ah, at least in terms of what is unanimously considered to be reprehensible bid`ah, is a very complex question, and one that should cause us to be humble. My hope is not that people begin twirling. Personally, I could not care less if people decided they were never going to twirl again. However, it is worth us taking stock at this point and realising that aggressive arguments over bid`ah have been dividing our community unnecessarily. The topic is complex, and that is why it is best left to scholars to handle. The rest of us should be very careful about declaring something to be a reprehensible form of bid`ah, even if we have never come across it before, because if there is one thing I have learned, it is that there is almost always more to it than meets the eye.

Can we agree then, all of us, not to be so quick on the bid`ah button when a practice is not causing any demonstrable harm or injustice, at least until we have verified that all traditional forms of scholarship stand in agreement regarding it? Insha Allah, if we can agree on that, many, many more Muslims will stand unified than currently stand so. Fault is not limited to those who take a restrictive view of bid`ah, for amongst those who take a permissive view are those who ridicule the more restrictive. I don't think, for example, that Rahma's posts in this thread have been particularly helpful.

Rather it is about us all coming together to recognise the legitimacy of such diversity and not feel the need to win others to our viewpoint. Insha Allah I will try to show such respect. Who here will go with me?

Quote

I hope I do not live to see a time when these sorts of actions are practiced to such a degree that the acts of worship with a basis in the Shariah are forgotten and lost.

So do I and so does everyone. Indeed, that will be one of the considerations of those scholars who take a more permissive approach. Never is a new form of worship countenanced to the exclusion of prescribed forms.

For what it is worth, I remain intrigued as to why whirling dervishes seem to upset so many people. I have asked previously why ibn_hazm considered their actions to be so deviant that it has reached the point of ridiculousness. I still stand waiting for a response to this question because I find the fact that people have such strong reactions to this sociologically interesting. Why is it that we feel issues like this are worth the angst?

Please ibn_hazm or Myst, I respectfully wish to understand what it is about whirling per se that is so deviant that it warrants such strong censure in light of the various juristic approaches to the topic.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

Ma salaama,

Shibshib.

[afroz]

Assalaam Alaikum,

Shibshib wrote:

Quote

Please ibn_hazm or Myst, I respectfully wish to understand what it is about whirling per se that is so deviant that it warrants such strong censure in light of the various juristic approaches to the topic.

Me too. Please explain. I would prefer that the explanation is about the whirling itself, not the general methodologies that could be applied to come to a ruling.

Was Salaam
Afroz

P.S. Shibshib, no prblems with the twirl/ whirl. By the way you posted your topic twice above, so I deleted one- they both seemed the same...

[Majestic_Islam]

Assalaamu 'alaikum wr wb...

I will not get into the topic of whirling dervishes, however, Dhikr is an inseparable part of any Muslim/ah's life. To contemplate Allah subhaanahu wa ta'ala and all of His blessings is to make tafakkur of Him. To remember Allah when we look at our hands, when we go to the aquarium, when we go to the sea, when we look at the sky.. These are all instances when we give thanks to the Creator of the 'Alameen...
La Tansa dhikrillah (Do not forget the Remembrance of Allah the Almighty).
Regarding Abdul Qadir Jaylaani rahimahullah, surley we don't have 'ulemaa like him today, and those people who go around whirling/spinning, Allahu 'alam what their intentions are. Do they get paid to spin? We can't ask for a monetary figure for our remembrance of Allah subhaanahu wa ta'ala... Allah azzah wa jall asks us to remember Him when we begin something (Bismillah - in the Name of Allah), to remember Him when we finish something (saying Alhamdulillah (Praise be to Allah)), and to make tafakkur, or to reflect on His countless Bounties and Blessings that He has adorned us with.
Does anyone have a historical aspect to this whirling? Like when did it begin, who started it, and who carried it on. I know that the Mewlawi's or the like do it, but hisotrically how did it start?
The best way is the way of the Salaf radi'Allahu 'anhum, and to emulate their paths, we follow the rightly guided 'Ulemaa which are the inheritors of the Anbiyaa... We stick to the Majority and follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah in the way of Ahlus sunnah wa Jama'ah.. and inshaAllah we hope that Allah will forgive us our sins and enter us into Gardens of Eden under which rivers flow. Ameen.


Successful Indeed are the Believers!

Your brother in Islam

[GlimmerofKawthar]

SubhanAllah,

WalHamdulilah,

Wal-laailaha ilal lah,

Wal-Lahu akbar.

[reemziez]

Asalaamo alaykum warahmahtullahi

Majestic Islam wrote:

Quote

Does anyone have a historical aspect to this whirling? Like when did it begin, who started it, and who carried it on. I know that the Mewlawi's or the like do it, but hisotrically how did it start? 

Sufism got its content and rituals from Islam, but also picked up elements from older religious practices. It developed gradually in early Islam, but there is little proof of real Sufism before 800 AD.

At the opening of the 21st century the 13th century Sufi mystic Rumi is one of the most widely read poets in the West. The Whirling Dervish ritual ceremony was created by Rumi's son, Sultan Veled, as a way of honouring the passing of his father, who had immersed himself in whirling and writing spiritual poetry. Dervish means someone who sits at the door or gateway between the visible earthly reality and invisible realms of spirit.

Hope that answers your questions brother.

Walaykum asalaam,
reemie

[Rahma]

Quote

Dervish means someone who sits at the door or gateway between the visible earthly reality and invisible realms of spirit.

correct me if i am wrong but isnt dervish just the pronounciation of the turkish people who usually pronounce the w or waw in arabic as vee. and the alif as "ehlif" as in similar to the e in hell. thats why sometimes you hear them say elhemdullillah... simply their pronounciation.

the real word is darwish in arabic and prounced darweesh. meaning a simple person and sometimes attached to faqir - poor person or people of little need of anything worldly living simply by their immediate neccesities.

but because of tassawufs huge influence on the turkish people and especially rumis influence on the turks they popularised the word for the west and everyone began to know it as dervishes.

in any case a dervish or darweesh can as you say be "someone who sits at the door or gateway between the visible earthly reality and invisible realms of spirit," but this isnt the root meaning of the word.

wallahu a'lam

[reemziez]

Dervish has become an English word now. Look it up in the dictionary if you dont believe me.

1.) A member of any of various Muslim ascetic orders, some of which perform whirling dances and vigorous chanting as acts of ecstatic devotion.

2.) One that possesses abundant, often frenzied energy

But that's not to say you're wrong. It might as well have come from the Arabic language innitially, but because of its frequent use in Western society, they made it an English word.

Allah knows best..
reem

[Rahma]

Quote

Dervish has become an English word now. Look it up in the dictionary if you dont believe me.

true dat

but their definition is hilarious:

Quote

1.) A member of any of various Muslim ascetic orders, some of which perform whirling dances and vigorous chanting as acts of ecstatic devotion.

lol

Quote

2.) One that possesses abundant, often frenzied energy

even bigger lol

its understandable if non-muslims hold strange opinions of muslims but
you see but the sad thing is alot of muslims are taking western definitions and trying to use them against muslims.

[reemziez]

Its not really a western definition muslims use against muslims, but rather a western definition some muslims use against an innovation brought to Islam by Rumi's son. Big difference .

[Rahma]

Quote

an innovation brought to Islam by Rumi's son.

do you have a reference for this?

[reemziez]

Sultan Veled was Rumi's son, and he created the whirling dervish ritual as a way of hounouring the passing of Rumi (from what i read...) .

[Rahma]

i have discussed the issue with certain sufis and they have other claims too thats all. im just doing some research on it as well. im not prepared to defend them and condone twirling as can be read from previous posts but im not also prepared to condem it.

some trace it back to abu bakr, as given in previous posts examples. others from rumi himself when his friend was killed and rumis mourning accompanied with the twirl. ive heard that rumis son organised the mevlevi order after his fathers death but not that he established the actual twirling.

[reemziez]

He didnt establish the actual twirling, but he established the ritual ceromony in honour of his father.

[Rahma]

your not understanding me lol.

if you read the previous posts you might.

To say that because you read in one place that it started in 800 AD is the definite answer and theres no questions about it is futile.

what i said was:

Quote

however i will mention the hadith that is often referred to as hadith al-Ifik. 
This hadith is in relation to when aisha was accused of adultery and her own father abu bakr radi allah a'nu was so upset he began to shun her. 
the situation was then flipped around when aisha's innocence was proven and the man accusing her of indecency was one of the poor people abu bakr would give charity to, Mistah bin Uthatha . when abu bakr learned of her innocence and of Mistah bin Uthatha accusing her he became angered that he was giving donation to Mistah bin Uthatha and he had accused his daughter and started the whole absurd situation in the first place. he thus swore that he would never pay the man again, to which Allah revealed "And let not those who are good and wealthy among you swear not to help their kinsmen, those in need and those who left their homes in Allah's Cause. Let them forgive and overlook. Do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? Verily! Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (24.22)".when Muhammad pbbuh revealed this to abu bakr, he went into such an extatic state of joy, what they call in arabic "Hajal", that he turned around on his spot and exclaimed " who am i that Allah reveal an ayah about me" and added, "Yes ! By Allah! I like that Allah should forgive me," and resumed helping Mistah whom he used to help before. 

obviously Abu Bakr knew the significance of this revelation and rather than be hurt he became overflowing with joy that Allah should even mention him, whatever the way it may be, wether in praise or correction. that was the iman of abu bakr and such was his state. no one can deny this and it is well recorded in the sunan. ask reputable scholars and they will tell you of it. 

it is from this that the mevlevis along with their attachments to jalaludin rumi base their sources for twirling.

and this isnt from a western website but rather from sufis whom i asked personally.

this isnt to say that it is the only answer, merely that it is a possibility that some twirlers justify their actions from abu bakrs action.

wallahu a'lam

[reemziez]

THATS how hey justify their twirling?? but doesnt it seem like abu bakr just twirled out of excitement.. u know, like when ppl go "yippeeee!!!"..

Allah knows best. But if prophet Mohammad never twirled, then it IS an innovation, right??

[Rahma]

who can say it isnt an innovation???

but if were going to condem it on the mere basis that it is an innovation then i guess were gonna go back to the arguements in the middle of this thread trying to establish the differences between innovation.

[reemziez]

right.

[irfyte]

assalamu alaykum.

as i am sure you have all realised by now, i am a completely unbiased and objective observer in these sorts of matters. 8) :?

i have read just about everything on the 5 pages that make up this thread. i have carefully read shibshib's stuff and the responses from ibn Hazm and Myst.

basically it boils down to the following issues:

1. how does one define sunna? because bidah is in essence the antithesis of sunna?

2. to what extent is the practice of dhikr regulated?

Myst and Ibn Hazm will not come out and admit it, so i might as well. the neo-salafite definition of sunna has some supporters amongst early scholars. and no doubt even certain incidents from the salaf support the neo-salafite position. i detect that Myst and Ibn Hazm are following the neo-Salafite position.

why do i describe it as 'neo-Salafite'? because it represents an attempt by one lapsed hanbali by the name of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab and his followers to return to what they see as the way of the salaf. and so you will find most neo-Salafite literature does not quote so much from the salaf as from neo-Salafite scholars who lived centuries after the salaf.

Shibshib's position, on the other hand, represents the views of the majority of scholars from the four schools of law, each of which traces its originins, methodology and arguments directly from imams who were from the salaf. hence, i would argue that the position as Shibshib has described is in fact more authentic in reflecting the position of the salaf.

the rhetoric of the various factions of the neo-Salafite movement may refer to the salaf and pay lip-service to them. but the reality of the salaf and their behaviour shows total devotion to Allah and His Messenger and a high level of spirituality that simply cannot be found amongst even the most learned of the neo-Salafite scholars.

in this regard, i note the mocking words used by Myst and Ibn Hazm toward some of the practices of dhikr. they remind me of the words of Umar bin Abdul Aziz when he said: "If the sahaba were alive today, we would look at them and think they were crazy. and they would look at us and think we had no faith!".

i have said enough. i must go and rest. if i spend any further time on these forums, i will have no option but to commence legal proceedings against all moderators and owners of this site for damages for lack of sleep, waste of time and sore eyes. Shibshib, will you represent me? if not, face these ...

:x :wink: :? :shock2:

ma salama

[GreenOz]

Quote

i have said enough. i must go and rest. if i spend any further time on these forums, i will have no option but to commence legal proceedings against all moderators and owners of this site for damages for lack of sleep, waste of time and sore eyes. Shibshib, will you represent me? if not, face these ...

hehehehehehehehehehehe..........its all free-will mate! we dont force people to contribute here and we are not about to put a disclaimer reading:

[size=18][b]WARNING: IslamicSydney Forums are Addictive

However, distraction through Dhikr may help the addiction :wink:

Peace 8)
Hanan

[Mowlana Vector]

An Ancient Spin on Enlightenment
The Sydney Morning Herald (10 October, 2003)

The whirling Sufi can leave Western audiences in hypnotic rapture. Stephanie Bunbury traces its origins.


Whirling dervishes from Turkey ... the dance, emotionally
and physically demanding, is about faith, not performance.

Everything you see as the dervishes dance, Hakan Talu explains, has a meaning. The tall hat is like a gravestone; the white skirt is a shroud; the black coat is a grave. These are not costumes because even though the whirling dervishes are on stage they are not putting on a show.

"The ceremony," he says, "is a prayer wherever you do it. As a ritual or a performance." The funereal symbolism marks the symbolic death of the ego, as the soul bonds with God.

I meet Hakan Talu in Istanbul, where the group he helped to found, the Istanbul Music and Sema Group (ISMG), follows in the circling footsteps of the old sects devoted to the life and teachings of Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi. Rumi who died in 1273 AC, left behind vast volumes of poetry, as well as records of talks and speeches that went on for days. All these had, Talu says, only one subject. "Human life. And he said only one thing: 'Open your heart'."

Rumi lived and died in Konya, a central Turkish town that, for all that it now follows the current style of grubby concrete blocks, dates back to the eighth century BC; some of the country's most important Hittite remains lie just to the west. The town is the seat of the Mevlevi tradition. Sufi tourism is big, too. Bearded dervishes adorn coffee cups, plates, clocks and thermometers. The town seems poised to whirl.

Somehow, though, the tradition remains untarnished. The building that was once the sect's mausoleum and seminary is now a museum, but when I visit it with Nadir Karnibuyukler, the choreographer and one of the founders of ISMG, he bows his head and murmurs a few devotional words at the doorway.

He speaks no English, so we walk around the cases of silk jackets once worn by medieval dervishes and magnificently decorated Korans in companionable silence. I am intrigued by a casket, inlaid with mother-of-pearl, that purports to contain "the Prophet's beard". The mixture of ecstasy and scholarship that is Sufism (Islamic mysticism) sits oddly, to me, with the veneration of relics, but Karnibuyukler just nods at it. That is how it is.

Mystery is central to Sufism. As well as observing Islamic tenets - praying, helping the poor, fasting, and making the haj to Mecca - Sufi initiates would enter the visionary state of "halvet" - a period of fast and isolation that allows the dervish "to go through the curtains to the truth" and perform "zikr", the repetition of the 99 names of God. In Talu's view, this is not so much ritual as reverence. "The leaves are doing zikr. Everything is constantly creating; God is not up there, but in our hearts. So zikr is not so much about literally repeating a name. It is in every breath."

Nobody quite knows how "sema", the whirling dance, came to be part of the mystic mix. It seems to date back to Rumi, but rules for correct dervish dancing were written down only 150 years after his death. The lodges, or tekke, needed rules, Talu says, to establish unity. Rumi did not trouble about them. "He said 'how can you set rules for love?"'

The tekke, Talu says, were all closed in 1925. There had been 700 Mevlevi lodges in Istanbul alone; only a few are preserved as museums. This was the work of Ataturk, the revered prime minister who, after World War I, transformed the old Ottoman Empire into a secular state.

Surprisingly, Talu is convinced that this was the right move. Sufism was a cult, then, full of false prophets. "Everyone wants something to believe in today," he says, "so imagine how easily deceived people were then. You joined a lodge and suddenly a sultan was running your life."

Sufi tradition has continued unscathed in private learning and practice and in the mosques, while the mystics wear ordinary clothes and hold ordinary jobs; it was only the charlatans and the separatists who lost out.

The IMSG however, was founded under the auspices of a master. Talu, Karnibuyukler and the music director, Serhat Sarpel, were taught by Ali Dogan Ergin, who died in 1998. Their group maintains strict tradition. They sing only the "ayin" or devotional songs written before 1925.

Talu and Sarpel have been playing Sufi music since they began studying music at the conservatorium; Sarpel trained as an opera singer. Karnibuyukler started whirling when he was 10. The sensation of whirling, he says, is inexplicable. "Even angels cannot stand between me and God, so it is a personal experience." It is not easy to whirl. Even devotees rarely whirl once they are past 30. It is too physically demanding.

This all represents a lifetime commitment. What do Western audiences get out of seeing the dervishes? Talu doesn't know. "But we see people still there afterwards. They say they felt a divine power. People cry, shout or sit mesmerised. It can be electrifying. Sometimes, in concert, we reach a state where we start crying."

There are a lot of whirling dervish groups, especially in Konya, where you can buy a ticket for dinner with a dervish show thrown in.

This is not the IMSG way. "We don't think of this as a business," says Talu. "We see it as a service. Pay attention and it will change things for you. We always witness this: if there is a lack or a problem in your life, it changes because the way you look at life becomes different."

The Whirling Dervishes are at the Sydney Opera House on October 24 and 25.
=============
ALSO SEE



Turkish Wizards Spin Circles of Life
The Australian (20 October, 2003)

Turkish Delight: The Whirling Dervishes
The Ark, ABC Radio National (22 October, 2003)

With A Whirl and A Prayer
Sunday Herald-Sun (19 October, 2003)

[Mowlana Vector]

Quote

Sema: Human Being in the Universal Movement

Sema is part of the inspiration of Mevlana Celaleddin-i Rumi (1207- 1273) as well as of Turkish custom, history, beliefs and culture.



From a scientific viewpoint we witness that contemporary science definitely confirms that the fundamental condition of our existence is to revolve. There is no object, no being which does not revolve and the shared similarity among beings is the revolution of the electrons, protons and neutrons in the atoms, which constitute the structure of each of them. As a consequence of this similarity, everything revolves and man carries on his live, his very existence by means of the revolution in the atoms, structural stones of his body, by the revolution of his blood, by his coming from the earth and return to it, by his revolving with earth itself.

For a visual illustration, click here ...

[Mowlana Vector]

Whirling Dervishes: A Search For Spirituality

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/image/this%20is%20naqshbandiyya.gif

Dervishhood

[XtasyXpress]

1. Salah is an ibadah with prescribed procedure, violating which is a sin depending upon the nature of violation.

2. Dhikr is also an ibadah, but dhikr means rememberance of ALLAH. I do not need rto recite ALLAH's name, but even merely thinking about ALLAH is a Dhikr. Looking at his creations (permissible ones) to admire ALLAh's sifaat of creating, bestowing bounties and destroying is also a rememberance of ALLAh. There is no written down procedure for this. If I look at the sun after wearing sunglasses and remember the incident of Ibraheem alaihissalaam's words from the Quran, about Sun, Moon etc, It is also a rememberance , though I am still wearing sunglasses.

If I can jog and thank ALLAh for giving me legs to run , if I can type and thank ALLAh for giving me fingers, If I see a permissible thing and thank ALLAh for giving me my vision, is there any procedure for it , whether I should wear a proper ISlamic dress from head to my sole, taliban style and then only thank ALLAH lest I may be doing a Biddah by not being appropriately dressed while I am thanking ALLAH and thus doing HIS dhikr????

The answer is NO PLease remember that every breath of ours as long as we are Muslims is also an Ibadah, because we are living in faith, ALhamdhuLiLLah.

We need to understand the difference between Salaah as Ibadah and the word Ibadah as a whole. We cannot extend all the rules for Salah to other forms of Ibadah.

for ex : I am working in a Hindu company, and there is an idol of some false hindu god , exactly infront of me, SO what, I will remember ALLAh as much as possible. Yes, I won't offer salaah there in that space, I will look for a better place , where there are no idols and pictures in front of me. But then is it right or wrong?

By the way a thrological answer is below and arabic text is missing, so please go to the original link :



http://www.aicp.org/...rophetbirth.htm

Those who consider any innovation an innovation of misguidance have been misled, because there are two sahih hadiths which support celebrating such an event. Imam Muslim related, through the route of Jarir Ibn ^Abdullah, the Prophet said:



which means: <<The one who innovates a good innovation in Islam has its reward and a reward similar to those who follow him in it--until the Day of Judgment--without lessening their reward. The one who innovates an innovation of misguidance would be sinful for it and has sins similar to those who follow him in it--until the Day of Judgment--without lessening their sins.>> There are two types of innovations mentioned in this hadith: the innovations of guidance and the innovations of misguidance.

What complies with the Qur’an, the Sunnah, the Ijma^ (scholarly consensus), and the sayings and practices of the Companions is an innovation of guidance, and what contradicts the Qur’an, the Sunnah, the Ijma^, and the sayings and actions of the Companions is an innovation of misguidance. This definition of the two types of innovations was given by many knowledgeable and trustworthy scholars of Islam; among them Imam ash-Shafi^iyy, Imam an-Nawawiyy, al-Bayhaqiyy, and the Hafidh, Ibn Hajar al-^Asqalaniyy.

It is apparent Muslims have not gone astray in celebrating the birth of the Prophet, based upon the aforementioned hadith, because the deeds practiced during this event are considered rewardable by the standards of the Religion, and in line with the definition of innovations of guidance. Unfortunately, there are some people who misinterpret a sahih hadith related by Abu Dawud:



which means: <<Most innovations are innovations of misguidance.>> Those who are misguided interpret the word (kul) as ‘every’ and thus claim this hadith means: "Every innovation is an innovation of misguidance. Their claim is unfounded for two reasons. Linguistically, this hadith is similar to the hadith related by al-Bayhaqiyy:



which clearly does not mean: "Every eye gazes the look of the adulterer;" rather, "Most people are guilty of the forbidden look." The person blind since birth would surely not have the forbidden look, and it is known the Prophets would never commit such an abject sin. The word (kul) as used in both hadiths refers to ‘most,’ although it can mean "every" it does not mean this in all cases.

As a matter of fact, in the explanation of Sahih Muslim, an-Nawawiyy said: "The saying of the Prophet, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam, is among the terms which are (^am makhsus) i.e., a general statement giving a specific meaning; which is a known field in Islam, and the meaning of the hadith is "most innovations are innovations of misguidance." This field the is seen in the Qur’an in Ayah 25 of Surat al-Ahqaf: which means the wind Allah sent as punishment to the people of ^Ad demolished most of the things.

To accept the meaning: "Every innovation is an innovation of misguidance," as the meaning of the sahih hadith related by Abu Dawud would negate the sahih hadith related by Imam Muslim which specifies two types of innovations: the innovations of guidance and the innovations of misguidance. In the rules of the Religion it is not permissible to interpret two sahih hadiths in contradiction to one another, therefore we know the true meaning.

Although most innovations are innovations of misguidance, there are numerous examples of Religiously acceptable innovations. During the Caliphate of ^Umar Ibnul Khattab, ^Umar initiated the gathering of people in Ramadan to pray the Tarawih Prayer in congregation. When he saw the people performing this prayer in congregation he said:



which means: "What a good innovation that is!" The high status of ^Umar Ibnul Khattab is known, thus it is important to point out ^Umar used the explicit term "innovation" in his praise. If all innovations were misguided--as some claim--^Umar would not have innovated this practice, nor expressed this praise, yet both al-Bukhariyy and Muslim related this incident. During the era of the followers of the Companions of the Prophet, another praise-worthy innovation took place. Initially, letters like the ba, ta, tha, and ya, did not have dots above or below them. This practice of distinguishing between the letters by using this notation began after the time of the Prophet.

Since the time of the Prophet, many innovations have been adopted. Remembering the birth of the Prophet by doing rewardable deeds is a praise-worthy innovation. It is an honorable event and special to Muslims throughout the world. We rejoice in being members of the greatest nation of Islam--the nation of Muhammad--who was the best Prophet and the best creation of Allah. In Surat Al ^Imran, Ayah 110, Allah said:



which means: [You are the best of nations brought forth to the people; bidding the lawful (ma^ruf) forbidding the unlawful (munkar), and believing in Allah.] This verse means this nation is the best of nations by virtue of its Prophet," as explained by the scholars of Islam. Muslims are thankful to Allah for the blessings of Islam and for being among the followers of Muhammad. In Surat Al ^Imran, Ayah 31, Allah said:



which means [If you love Allah, then follow the Prophet, and Allah will love you.]

[WarriorEtte]

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