[Ashiq]

ABC National Radio's TheReligion Report will have an interview which looks at the emergence of Darul Fatwa as a body claiming "High Council" of Australia.

People interviewed include a spokesperson from Darul Fatwa, Afroz Ali and Kayser Trad.

When: 20th October 2004, Wednesday 8.30am (repeated 8pm Wednesday) on the Reilgion Reprt.

A transcript of the interviews will be available on the ABC's website.

[Sam]

Assalamualaikum,

If you go to http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ you should be able to listen to it online, via both Real Audio and Windows Media.

salaams
sam

[afroz]

Yikes, it is tomorrow.....

[Sam]

If you're online, it's on in 5 minutes.

http://www.abc.net.a...ten/default.htm

[Wolf]

For those who missed this remember it's on again tonight at 8pm.

[Mowlana Vector]

Or if you can't wait till 8pm, read it online here ...

[Wolf]

I heard this morning and I have to disagree with Sidi Afroz in his assessment that Dar Alfatwa will succeed as it currently is. As he says it has some noble aims but the fact of the matter is that unless you engage the main organisations and more importantly the Imams it's not going to succeed.

From the little that I know, unfortunately this seems nothing more than a political exercise. But Allah (swt) knows best and what he wills will come to pass.

Wasalam
Wolf

[afroz]

Wolf said:

Quote

I heard this morning and I have to disagree with Sidi Afroz in his assessment that Dar Alfatwa will succeed as it currently is. As he says it has some noble aims but the fact of the matter is that unless you engage the main organisations and more importantly the Imams it's not going to succeed.

From the little that I know, unfortunately this seems nothing more than a political exercise. But Allah (swt) knows best and what he wills will come to pass.

Well I did not say, nor do I predict that DarulFatwa will succeed. All I have said is that it does have noble aims, and given that, it would be a PLEASANT surprise in a decade if we look back that finally a Muslim peak organisation would have succeeded.

Having said that, I totally disagree that the main organisations have to be engaged. A lot of action is making all of htem irrelevant, and I am happy about that, publicly.

As for Imams, it is not until ALL credible Imams, not only ethnically propped ones, that some positive will come from their engagement. Until then, many of such Imams do nothing but are the puppets of Mosque organisations, and many still nothing more than clerics leading prayers.

Nearly two decades have gone in my lifetime, and the same people are on the front, with nothing changed. It is getting time, for that change.

I do not support any one group, but I do stand for change, even if it means to ignore the dinasours.

Was Salaam
Afroz

[GreenOz]

i remember emailing DarulFatwa with queries and i never got any response from them back (accept a automatically generated email response acknowledging they received my email). It has been 2 weeks. So, if they represent us Muslims, why havent our concerns and queries been answered?

Peace B)
Hanan

[afroz]

You expect them to answer in two weeks when the other still have questions from me aging nearly 4 years, and still not answered?

Let us not judge them on the basis of two weeks.

This is the problem with the Muslim community- we pick on those who are yet to do anything due to their infancy, but have not guts nor inclination to stand up to those who have done nothing for the past two decades.

Big difference, and the quicker it is realised the better it is for sincerity and that unity word that keeps popping up.

Was Salaam
Afroz

[GreenOz]

and Johnny Howard hasnt heard us in 8 years

[Wolf]

I guess I just don't have as much faith in the sincerity of this new group but kheir inshallah.

Wasalam
Wolf

[afroz]

Oh do not get me wrong, sidi Wolf. My placement of sincerity is not on the new group.

The point I am making is that it is of little value to dissect a new organisation purporting what it does.

If you review my statements in the interview, I have highlighted the reality of the current organisation popping out, out of a need, rightly or wrongly, exclusively due to the incapability of the current structures. I am not endorsing the success or validity of DarulFatwa. I am suggesting the reality of the EXISTING bodies which has given rise to our current state of affairs.

Lastly, I have yet to see the involvement of the current organsiations and the "Imams" as of great importance, in comparison to the grassroots organisation themselves as well as some very professional and capable individuals who are conspicuous in the Australian community, not only in Sydney.

Was Salaam
Afroz

[Hanan Oum Medina]

SAWAWB

It was a good program this morning! I was actually up to hear it

If ANYTHING comes from this Darul Fatwa group, the least inshAllah that will happen is that it will give the org's a good kick in the pants to get up and get things "organised". <-By that I mean everything that Afroz has mentioned about the Imams and the unity word. But I too have a bad feeling about DF. Somethings a fishy ...... inshAllah kheir.

Wasalaam
Hanan

PS Afroz sounds good on radio! So well spoken Keysar also, not like he does on television. I like him though.

[afroz]

We have to meet up with this Afroz.

[GreenOz]

yeah, he sounds better when he says:

"Why are people so unkind?"

(those who dont know Kamal wont get it)

[afroz]

Is he related to Kamahl??

[ahmedk]

Salaam

Sorry Afroz, but I am in agreement with Wolf. I am not sure if this was your intentions behind your comments, but the way it reads, you have endorsed Darul Ifta (or whatever they call themselves) and publicly admonished others . I don't really see the benefit of airing our dirty laundry is when this program is targeted at Non-Muslims.

If it is the Islamic Charieties Project that is the main driver of this, all i will ask people to do to judge this group is to listen to the radio station, (2MCR 92.1 FM), they control on behalf of US, the entire Muslim community to see how inclusive and representative of the of the greater Muslim community they are.

Besides the Quran & Adan, what a complete waste of resources that radio station is (the signal covers all of Sydney). If they want to prove they are genuine in their desire to be inclusive of the whole community, how about broadcasting some quality ENGLISH dawa programs form the likes of Hamza Yusuf etc. How about putting in place a quota to allow at least 80% English content and giving the other 20% to the various Muslim ethnic group. In its current form, it should be called 2LMS (Lebanese Muslim Sect) radio, because that is all it represents.

Having said all this, I agree there is a need for generational change and for peak/community orgnisations to either become more representative of the people they are supposedly serving or they will become obsolute. However, let us not support an alternative just for the sake of it being an alternative. Let us look beyond the retoric and see the realty.

Salaam
Ahmed

[afroz]

The same can be said of the current organisations.

The dirty laundry was already out. It is completely wrong to allow one side to be allowed to dicredit the other, but when the other responds, we tend to have a problem, because we ourselves belong to the first group.

I vehemently disagree to the assertion of using lines like "dont wash our dirty laundry", "for the sake of unity", etc, to protect the current incapabilities and downright wrong actions. There is no unity in the wrong, especially when it is this old a problem AND the world knows of the problem. The Program presenter knew so much about the Muslim community- nobody had to wash out there.

The so-called peak bodies have been bagging everybody else with no action from themselves apart from asserting cute lines from the Prophetic Tradition. This cannot go on forever, especially when the assertions of unity, etc are nothing but to protect the current dead ducks.

As Shaykh Hamza said, I am a Muslim and did not join a tribe. It is time to speak the truth, even if against ourselves to get things right. If we do not, the next thing we know is the likes of that Australian sufi group, comprising of "non-muslim sufis" will claim to have started the Supreme High Council (Im being hypothetically rhetorical here) purporting to represent us. They already do in some circles.

Before such things happen, we have to fix the problem up. I have sent letters, emails and have directly asked questions about the need to fix the problems, without any answers.

When the Australian public asks questions which clearly indicates they in fact know more than we think the general population does, it is a major concern, and we cannot hide.

I do not think this is the last of it, and in fact there will be even greater shakeups of the Muslim Organisations, not from the media, but the government. And I would suggest not to cry foul or racism, because we ourselves have a lot to blame.

I did not endorse Darul Fatwa; I pointed out the reality of the mentality of the disgruntled people. Reality- a hard bone to chew.

Was Salaam
Afroz

This post has been edited by afroz: 20 October 2004 - 11:22 PM

[GreenOz]

I have a question, which doesnt include the average mohammed in the community, but is a different kettle of fish:

The Muslim Womens National Network of Australia (MWNNA) has joined the Australian Women's Coalition

The Australian Society of Islamic Psychology (ASIP) has gotten Islam and Psychology under the Australian Psychological Association

Now, where is the relevance of such Muslim peak bodies here when there is more relevance, more action done by professional organisations under the appropriate professional bodies in this country?

Peace B)
Hanan

[afroz]

Fully agree. And keep up the good work, independently.

Was Salaam
Afroz

[ahmedk]

Quote

The same can be said of the current organisations.

I agree 100%.

Quote

I vehemently disagree to the assertion of using lines like "dont wash our dirty laundry", "for the sake of unity", etc, to protect the current incapabilities and downright wrong actions. There is no unity in the wrong, especially when it is this old a problem AND the world knows of the problem.

I don't deny there is a problem nor am I trying to "protect" anyone.

However we are talking about complete organisational change that may take up to a generatation to be completed. You can jump up and down and scream out to the whole world that "this and that is wrong", but in reality it won't change a think.

Real change will come when the general Muslim community stops being so apathetic and starts getting involved to fix our many problems. Me or you or 20 others like us will be unable to do anything of substance unless the masses are involved. Until this happens the community deserves to remain in it's current state.

A better strategy would be to establish alternative grassroots based non-sectarian organisations that serve the community. This way you will earn, over time, the real respect, trust and following of the community. Things like Al Ghazzali, Mission of Hope, UMA and dare I say this place. Let the others continue in their ways - they will eventually become redundant as there support base shrinks.

An important point to remember is that it maybe that the old brigade have good intentions, but are lacking in ability. Let Allah judge them, not us. We should concentrate on working on our REAL alternatives, not spend time starting and putting out fires (in other people houses or our own when they start throwing fire back - and they will).

Another strategy is to acknowledge the sad reality that as long as the current structures are still there we have no real choice but to work with them. Let us be realistic and remember who legally "owns" and controls the Mosques, schools, etc on our behalf. We should do our best to advise and make changes from within. We are talking about millions of dollars of assets.

Over the years I have had the opportunity, alhamdoulillah, to be involved with various Muslim organisations, formally and informally, at the executive level. I have tried both strategies - exposing & attacking, and working from within to implement change. From my personal experiences, the most successful way by far is to make changes from within. It is very frustrating and takes plenty of time and patience - but in the end it is the most successful way.

In saying all this I still believe we should put equal energy into making our alternatives successful, in case we fail to change the status quo.

Quote

The Program presenter knew so much about the Muslim community- nobody had to wash out there.

I wasn't aware that the converstion was only between you and the presenter. B) Seriously, how could discussing this on radio have helped to bring about change? The only thing it has done is highlighted and confirmed to the greater non-Muslim community how divided we are. Sorry if you disagree but that is the reality.

Salaam
Ahmed

[afroz]

The changes are already happening, as you have rightfully mentioned.

Discussing it on the radio was important. I reluctantly agreed because if it was not me, it would have been someone else..... that is all I will say.

We are part of the australian societal landscape. We ned to consider the media from a holistic position. We cannot expect them to do us any favour of speaking the truth, when we will not step up to do it ourselves. If we engage with the media in a positive and direct manner, we will get positive responses more often.

Not speaking to them would have been the same old turf war story- trust me.

I also reiterate that the media and the general public, who listen to the programs like The Religion Report DO know about our inadequacies. I was at an interfaith function about 3 months ago, and the chaotic nature of the Muslim peak organisations was the talk of the evening, and I had to hose it down. So we do the balanced thing. If this interview, and many more will come, is dealt with "they dont know, so we can play it down" attitude, we will lose many important Australian supporters, who KNOW otherwise.

The dissection, as I was told to do, was about organisational structure and the rising disenchantment. I think I did a balanced job of speaking the reality without actually slandering anyone. BUT, I ask you to re-read the transcript again. and sincerely see who was slandering individuals in public.... it says a lot. Or is that now "speaking the truth"??

Was Salaam
Afroz

[ahmedk]

To be very honest, unfortunately I was not "shocked" by some of the views of the other speakers .

I have been asked to speak and do interviews on this and similar subjects before. Unless the media is doing a story on Muslims or an Islamic issue, I always decline for the fear of creating more division. My opinion with these things is that it is better not to speak at all, no matter how bad you might think the alternative is. At the end of the day Allah will protect his deen.

What are your thoughts on my ideas of change from within organisations (were possible)?

Salaam
Ahmed

[afroz]

If you can get in the organisation at a level from where you can make changes, then great.

But that is NOT the reality of our organisations. If it was, a lot of changes would have already happened. Some of us have also tried, like yourself. some of us know the practical and legal obstacles in wanting to change the current status quo of the dinasours.

I have a different view for effective change- make such organisations as irrelevant as they are in reality. We cannot have people assert "high council" on the one hand and the other side claiming "LMA is the best representation of Muslims in Australia" when none of this is true, and nothing short of political bickering.

I have one simple strategy- make them irrelevant. They already are on that slide. The independent organisations are growing, not in numbers but in credibility with the wider Australian community, including the non-muslims. This is a quantitative fact.

I also have to disagree with your statement, which is something you say often (sorry), that of "fear of more division". Bro, the community cannot be further divided. The Australian Muslims deserve better and can do better. We can speak out and we must do it with wisdom and point it to relevant channels.

The Prophetic Tradition about this is this: Remove the system that harms, without keeping the intent on just removing the people. I have no problems with the people. If a structured system can be put in place, a lot can then be done. and this can only happen by sidelining the current lineup of the dinasours, in order to establish an effective organisational infrastructure.

I have to say that Shaykh Taj al-din Hilaly has still a lot to offer in terms of leadership. We have many more excellent Religious leaders who can give us spiritual and doctrinal leadership. What we need is a brand new, current and non-partisan administrative system. A lot of us have the ability to put it together.

I have to say without boast that someone like me is providing consultative and strategic advice to an International Muslim organisation, quite successfully, and here we are, we cannot even suggest such things in our own home. Sad indeed.

Organisational status quo is not only dangerous, it is wrong. Change to bring about benefit is paramount.

Was Salaam
Afroz

[Wolf]

I don't disagree with what you say Sidi about the need for change nor the problems with the community, nor does Ahmed I think. I'm just not convinced as to the value in these types of interviews in regard to furthering that change.

The reality is that the people who need to hear what you said were all still fast asleep and even if they were awake wouldn't listen to the interview anyway.

The audience, by far and away, was non-muslim and I just don't know what benefit there is to gain in discussing these sorts of issues in that forum. Kheir, maybe you're right on that point, this is just my humble opinion.

As to how to change the status quo I think I myself have also said the most effective way is to make the organisations irrelevant and that's what you should continue to focus on. But let's be brutally honest, the Dar Al fatwa is just another front for the ICPA and will do nothing more than cause more harm to the community.

Now if a group of TRULY independent organisations got together (hint:hint) and set something like this up in the proper manner then I think it could in fact be the unifying force that is needed.

Wasalam
Wolf

[GreenOz]

mmmmmm.....i think that:

Quote

Another strategy is to acknowledge the sad reality that as long as the current structures are still there we have no real choice but to work with them. Let us be realistic and remember who legally "owns" and controls the Mosques, schools, etc on our behalf. We should do our best to advise and make changes from within.

this is true. as i try as much as possible to work with them and not that much against them, despite their internal issues- BUT I KEEP THE ORGANISATION INDEPEDENT. i am not a politician and i am not there to prove anyone wrong but to carry out the service to the Mus,im community. We need their resources and that is simply true as we dont have solid foundations in terms of resources which they have and should provide.

I have used many resources that we just done have, eg MoH organisational premises kindly given to us by LMA, admin resources kindly given to us by UMA, theological advice from Al-Ghazzali centre, mosque based support to advertise our programs, Arab and non Arab mosques. And we help them in return when needed.

i believe that networking is the key. Networking at this stage does not harm anyone, in fact i am finding it very beneficial for smaller organisations as the Oct 30th iftar is a great example where MoH ( a new organisation) is hosting alongside the big guns of MCCA, MEFF, and MAA. The more we network, the more we grow together and inshallah build something constructive out of it.

i think positively, and wish that peak bodies / organisations dont become irrelevant, as Ahmed says they have resources, but they should open up their membership doors to youth professionals to input their energy to make that structural change without ethnic and sectarian borders that limit its proper potential (as they do have resources).

ok, you can all pounce on me now.......................

Peace B)
Hanan

[ahmedk]

What about the reality that all the dinosaurs control millions of dollars of assets. Who is going to learn how to run the schools, mosques, organistions, charities etc that are currently in place? You can not and will not make alternatives to these in the immediate future (if not longer). That is why I strongly advocate working with people.

I like to have a bit more of a positive outlook. I honestly believe that most of the dinoasurs are sincere in their intention. There is no need to provoke or antagonise them. If they approached with sincerety and wisdom they will allow outside involvement and eventual change. I have seen this happen successfully with a few orgs. Sorry but your argument about unity is not right. If we are already divided, we should work on decreasing these divisions. We should not accept this and regard it as the norm. We should take care not to create further division by our actions/words. Let us not forget, if you do set up alternatives, where will the disenfranchiseed "others" go? We need to have a concilitory inclusive approach. Even if it means short term stagnation.

In regards to the LMA, I am sure you will see some MAJOR changes there within the next few years (it has already begun).

The key is to get all those involved in "generational/organisational change" to link & network together as much as possible. Then we will see real alternatives emerge that have legitimacy at the grassroots level.

Salaam
Ahmed

[GreenOz]

hey Ahmed, correct me if i am wrong, but are we thinking the same?