[Bok]

... and 'cause nobody ever creates a section for "Men in Islam" when they create a "Women in Islam" section in their book/website/organisation etc....

http://www.dmoz.org/...m/Men_in_Islam/

Bok

[OMJ]

[color="blue"]Re-Orienting the ‘Speaking Position’ in the World Wide Weird of Patriarchy[/color]

Asalamu Alaikum,

Very Cool link Bok! 8) 8) 8)
Good to see an Islamically-feminised online version of the male-interpreted biased datasphere ...

It’s really a clever online initiative, and this prompts me to stridently remind some of my fellow (Otherfying[color="red"]*[/color]) Muslim brothers of our Islamically correct responsibilities and challenges!!! :idea:

As some of our self-appointed and sanctimonious Mullahs, Ayatollahs, Ulama and Sheikhs are so busy with their around-the-clock fatwa-issuing ethno chauvinistic generators, and given our ‘disillusioned educated elites’ who are either captive of their own post-liberal fantasises, or culturally bound to their class-based indifferences; surely it is TIME for (Otherphobic) men to stop ‘speaking for women’ and earnestly do some listening!!! :idea:
(without any1 reminding me, I DO see the irony of my anti “speaking for women” decree)

BUT,

:arrow: Instead of writing those long theses about popular “anti-Islamic” conspiratorial theories and anecdotes of “victimhood”, wouldn’t be great if the male-feminists :idea: of the Muslim world instigate a world-wide campaign of re-education (courtesy of those rich Arabic sheikhdoms ) through out those notorious parts of the Muslim world where the apathy towards women’s right is an ‘official’ policy and ignorance is becoming a chronic bliss. :x

:arrow: Would not be also helpful, if humanitarian Muslims try to engage in an active de-politicisation of the contemporary politico-culturalist ‘gendered’ practices; as we could demonstrate to our non-muslim friends that there is a clear distinction between the behaviour of individual Muslims (read: secular/”Islamic” political hierarchy) and normative Islam.

Sorry folks, it’s just when some of us (once) get into power , we often fail to fully democratise the publicsphere for women to participate in the decision-making process in their homes, business, political and cultural institutions. However, this should also be noted that the majority of regimes in the Muslims world not only being ran by some corrupt, nepotistic, hereditary or military rulers, but they’re also receiving generous support from the United States of Arrogance — the global producer & defender of (restriction) Freedom, (dictatorship) Democracy and Human (wrongs) Rights.

However, one should not overlook the fact that the recent “religiously motivated” political behaviours by Muslims had miserably failed to create a 'model’ Islamic State ... not to mention that the contemporary so- called “Islamic governments” have yet to produce something to be proud of. While we Muslims are so into this ‘feel good’ habit of only remembering and celebrating the “golden past” — dynamic Islam being “currency of human civilisation” — we are also ironically making some very unforgettable present-day misdeeds in the name of our religion. :x

For those who might think that this reminder is just an another form of post-orientalist (Western) critique then I guess those blame-storming critics needs to be publicly reminded of some of their moral obligations. :idea:

If we're unable to get our own house in order, then honestly we can not and should not blame non-Muslims for (over) criticizing, humiliating and stereotyping our communities about those so called “Islamic” gendered policies. Simply because whether we like it or not, we, the male members of our Ummah have failed to vigorously advocate & implement those oft-neglected Quranic-inspired Rights 4 Women.

Writing about Women Rights in Islam, cultural critic, Ziauddin Sardar points out that the (traditional) religious scholars have been “systematically undermining these very rights for centuries”.
Sardar adds:
[quote]While the Quranic injunctions are always directed towards "the believing men" and "the believing women", their [male religious scholars] interpretations conveniently forget the men and place all the burden on women.
[color="blue"](“Muhammad For Beginners”, 1994:160, Allen & Unwin)[/color]
:arrow: Doubter, please stand up and say otherwise !??

I honestly find this so self-righteous and equally disgraceful to come across those tough-talking (muslim) apologists of gender-phobic cultural politics, who seem to be only (and so passionately) trying to debunk the ongoing claims of Muslim "insularity" & "denials" by verbally counterattacking their "morally repugnant" Western critics who also appear to be "overlooking the failures and shortcomings" of their own liberal lifestyle(s).

I don’t know what others think, but I honestly believe we should not cling into this high-moral ground mindset by engaging in such self-defeating denunciations of "immoral" non-Muslims, in particular the “decadent WEST”!!! Instead of blind following of the high priests of ‘cultural of blame’ we need to re-focus our intellectual energies to effectively dismantle the appalling anti woman alleged "Islamic" gender-biased policies via Re-education, and to be able to revive and live practical Islam.

We seem to be incredibly ignorant about the accountability that comes with the socio-political privileges of ‘high office’; We’re legendary popularisers and enforcers of politically-expedient and discriminatory injustice in the name and sadly at the expense of Islamic justice; we are despicably indifferent to the cries of female voices seeking justice and respect; and we’re failing to stand up against the ever-present injustices being inflected upon the beleaguered & forgotten Muslim women in the name of a fashionable (male-induced) religious “puritanism”. As one Muslim cultural anthropologist has indicated that:
[quote]" ... in a sense, educating men about women relies mostly on educating men about their religion"[/quote]
therefore, I believe, it’s the duty of every male Muslim to actively press with these issues, and to articulate these Islamically-inspired progressivist views loud and clear to those ideas-impaired politically-motivated “religious” bureaucrats and cultural gatekeepers world-wide.

No doubt, it’s a welcome challenge to our 'male feminists' 8) but most importantly a test of the religious character of our official 'talking heads' and future policymakers who need to re-position the status of women in their society and political system; NOT as a socio-politico-religious ‘BURDEN’ but rather as their moral and Islamically-correct Responsibility.

May Allah(swt) help us all.
=================

[color="red"]*[/color]


[color="red"]SEE ALSO:[/color]
“Eve’s Fault”
http://islamicity.co...w_islam/eve.htm

[color="red"]RELATED LINKS [/color]
“Prophet Muhammad’s Last Sermon”
http://islam101.com/...lastsermon.html

“Gender Perspectives in Islamic Tradition”
http://www.minaret.org/gender.htm

“Islamic Guidance on Treating Wives”
http://www.islamonli...?hFatwaID=91128

“Women Scholars of Hadith”
http://www.islamfort...menscholars.htm

“A Higher Grade For Men?”
http://arabnews.com/...le.asp?ID=20791

“Reflections on Muslim Family Issues”
http://muslim-canada...vingislam1.html

“The Status of a Woman in Islam”
http://www.islamzine...men/status.html

“Women and Civil Society”
http://www.ibnkhaldu...jan/essay1.html

“Injustice in the Name of Islam”
http://server792.dns...show.php?id=378

An Interview with Asma Barlas
(Author of "Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an)
http://www.iifhr.com...sma_barlas.html

“. . . A Critical Analysis of the Positions of Three Contemporary Women”
http://www.mediamoni...fathassan1.html

An Interview with Faezeh Hashemi
http://www.zan.org/lit2.html

“Women's Activism and Occidentalism . . . "
http://www.ibnkhaldu...ssay.html#Women

"Honour Among Women"
(A Profile of Norma Khouri, Author of "Forbidden Love" )
http://www.smh.com.a...3804516542.html

Eva Sallis: "Blinkers of An Unspeakable Horror"
Spectrum, The Sydney Morning Herald (1 March 2003: 14)
(A Review of Norma Khouri's "Forbidden Love")

“Feminism: The Stretching Factor”
http://www.september...2B/feminism.htm

“The Driving Seat of Passion”
(An Interview with Hind Kourouche)
http://www.smh.com.a...5638478253.html

“Creating Islamic Feminism through Literature: Women Claim Islam”
(A Book Review)
http://www.renaissan...octbore2y2.html

Beyond Westphalia: Nations & Diasporas
(A Case of the Muslim Umma)
http://www.islamic-s...org/sayyid.html

“Feminism, Nationalism, Modernity”
http://www.isim.nl/n...research/1.html

“Islam, Irigaray, and the Retrieval of Gender”
http://65.39.144.73/.../ahm/gender.htm

“Futures of the Islamic World …”
http://www.elmandjra.org/Futures.htm

“Women, Shari'a, and Oppression - Where are the Voices of Conservative Muslims?”
http://www.islamfort...m/ummzaid06.htm

“The Condition of Muslim Women: What Can We do?”
http://www.islam21.n...ues/key2-11.htm

“Educating the Literate”
http://www.dailytime...28-1-2003_pg3_4

[b]“Reformist Muslims Are Bringing New Hope to Islam”
http://argument.inde...sp?story=331673

[afroz]

A statistical fact: Women are more pro- active in the workings of Islam, e.g., Dawah, Administration, organising, etc.

Hooray to our sisters. May Allah reward you all.

A Statistical Theory: If you join all the icons that OzMediaJunkie used in his last post, a mysterious picture will appear! (Its a joke, and stop drawing on the computer screen!)

[serenity]

Just out of curiosity, how does other people feel about Muslim-Male-Feminists :?:

[springOnion]

LOL

Brothers are just neglected that is all.

Most Muslim parents concentrate on their daughters adherence to Islam and leave their sons "be boys"

the result is our world as we know it

[afroz]

SpringOnion,

Very true. The years of neglect on male children is a result of some of the many societal problems we see today.

Salaam
Afroz

[Bok]

Quote

Just out of curiosity, how does other people feel about Muslim-Male-Feminists :?:

Personally I think that one of the hats the Prophet, peace be upon him, wore was as a feminist. While it was not his primary mission, one of his roles was to educate society to protect and to support weakened members of society, and that includes women. So the Prophet was a Muslim-Male-Feminist in my book

[OMJ]

Quote

. . . How does other people feel about Muslim-Male-Feminists :?:

Speaking of “Muslim male-feminists”, here is an interesting email I received a while ago from Hekmat Sadat, an American-based Afghan academic & research scholar with the Institute for Afghan Studies ( IFAS),
who in an Islamically-inspired "male-feminist" critical tradition writes about the “lack of gender quality” in the post-Taliban administration.

I thought Sadat’s critique could be a (fitting) follow-up to the Issues raised in this thread.

In this paper, Sadat who is also a staff writer with the Lemar-Aftaab magazine throws some interesting light on the historical failures of the consecutive (secular, communist and so-called “Islamic”) Afghani regimes' “anti-women” gendered policies which had tried to reconcile the traditional ethno-cultural ‘Afghan machismo’ with the recent politico-religious ‘puritanism’ of the Talibanesque fantasies of governmentality.

What makes Sadat’s discursive account a refreshing critique, especially coming from a (Afghani) ‘male-feminist’ perspective, is, he seems to be critical of those so-called “pro-woman programs” promoted by the condescending Western feminist lobby groups and the ethno-chauvinistic Afghan rulers – the very same group of people who had unashamedly exploited the war-stricken Afghan female population @ every historical opportunity.

With all those well-publicised agonizing accounts of Afghani women post 9/11 tragedy - like the current newly-found interest for the “liberation” of the Iraqi women and children courtesy of our “freedom-fighting” economic crusaders of the "civilised" First World which make a quite sad reflection of today’s culture of apathy as it views our fellow human beings with such disdain; yet Sadat’s progressivist offering seems to conjure up primarily those Muslim men who may find it morally difficult to stand back and watch the voiceless (Afghan) women to be used as disposable political tools for some nasty and (unIslamic) politico-cultural doctrines. On the other hand, it is also a challenge to the current Afghan policymakers to re-accommodate the once active Afghan women back to the decision making spheres of Afghan politics and society.

Whether we agree or not with Sadat’s assessments, is irrelevant here. I suppose, for our budding ‘male feminists’ - Muslim human rights activists, it’s important to utilize the male feminist tactical knowledge to effectively counteract against the ubiquitous anti woman genderphobic fantasies turned biased legislative policies.

Finally a simple yet astute quote from some wise (wo)man ... who said:

Quote

We hate some people because we don’t know them … and we will not know them because we hate them.

W’salaam
==========================

[size=18]The Afghan Equation
By: Hekmat Sadat

Despite optimistic moves and passionate speeches by
the Transitional Administration, there is no doubt
that in Post-Taliban Afghanistan a basic problem
facing the national reconciliation and democratization
is the continued lack of gender equity. In part, this
inequity is due to the lack of educated and
professionally experienced women who had not fled from
the fanatics. For the most part, the sentiments of
the Taliban era preventing equal distribution of
socio-political functions still permeate the country.
There are high barriers to structural and
institutional entry and lots of risk for public
reputation and personal injury. By removing the
burqa, the issues did not get resolved; it merely
brought all the unresolved dialectics to the surface.
Since it can not be hidden again under the burqa, they
must be dealt with in rational, equitable, and equal
measures. Education is one way that these barriers can
be reduced.

Firstly, men need to be educated about the benefits of
emancipating women and their role in society.
Secondly, women need to be educated in universal,
technical, and vocational education. In addition, a
support system needs to be established such as a
kindergarten and distance learning via satellite
television or radio for rural or strict family units.
These variables and more are all part of an elaborate
social equation.

Socio-Political Variable
Afghan society especially during the fanatics
presented an awful image of apartheid against women
and intelligentsia. Everyone still remembers the
13-year-old Nahid who jumped off the fifth story
Macro-Rayan Apartment balcony so the warlords' men
would not rape her. In fact, there is a statue
created in her memory now. In addition, who can
forget the live image of the execution of an Afghan
woman, Zarmina, being shot in the head while under the
burqa before a forced to attend crowd at Ghazi Stadium
aired on CNN. Times are much better for urban women
but still I read a story that a few women teachers in
rural areas had acid thrown on them similar to the
episodes in Bangladesh. Then, we hear of brothels
created in the border cities of Pakistan that have
coerced teenage Afghan girls into prostitution. These
egregious criminals are ideological terrorists who
believe that women are solely for the pleasure of men,
or are commodities to be possessed and protected
against social transformation.

The Men Variable
Men need to be educated about the benefits of
emancipating women and their role in society. For
over a decade now and actually 2 decades if we
consider the refugee camps, women have lived under a
system of gender apartheid because the social norms
prescribed such a lifestyle. This lifestyle
manifested during the Taliban as women were not only
confined to the burqa but virtually imprisoned in
their homes with the windows painted black. The poor
economic conditions fed into the apartheid against
women.

Now, men need to be educated that there is no basis
for the exclusion of women. While it is interesting
that Islam never deprived women of their political
rights, the interpretation of related rules by
fanatics have always advantaged men and denied women
their God-given rights. Since illiteracy is high,
most men cannot read and write properly let alone
engage in philosophical dialogue or Islamic
jurisprudence. Therefore, naturally the few
semi-literates hijack the religion and adulator the
Afghan way of life. In a sense, educating men about
women relies mostly on educating men about their
religion.

The Women Variable
Women need to be educated in universal, technical, and
vocational education because it is widely understood
that schooling is related to the socio-political
system and to the general culture of a society. Many
of my generation grew up on the phrase, "knowledge is
power." This is exactly the reason the Taliban
forbade education of women as they feared the
awakening of the social consciousness. Education will
provide a chance for social mobility, political
ascendancy, or at least a sophisticated rational voice
if women are still locked out of the system.

While Afghan women, whether in Afghanistan or among
the Diaspora, are prepared to enlist in the "Women's
Rights Movement;" Afghanistan is in no way ripe for
the broader "Feminist Movement." Any change agents in
Afghanistan need to be cultural sensitive to be
effective and attract people to their struggle.
Although the intensity of opposition to women's
emancipation and participation in society have
diminished many-fold in the Post-Taliban era, there
are still deep rooted views that women have an
inferior position and must play a subordinate role.
The limited role of participation is a complete
disregard to the needs and contribution of women by
Afghan men.

Secondary Variables
A support system needs to be established such as
kindergartens and distance learning via satellite
television, video, or radio for rural and strict
family units. Kindergarten serves mainly to improve
behavior and prepare children for formal schooling.
However, it is during the story-telling and
reading/writing exercise when democratization is
instilled, gender equality, and most notably nation
building. Most importantly, kindergartens serve as a
complementary variable to women's education. If women
are to attend any type of schooling, they will need a
reliable place to drop off their children. Women's
education is nearly impossible women without the idea
of kindergartens. Furthermore, if the family demands
the women to be at home, then satellite television,
videos, and radio broadcast need to be utilized as
distance learning instruments. This might be the
best temporary approach as it will be most feasible
and social acceptable given the current attitude
towards women's emancipation.

Integrating the Variables
Nation-building is not just wearing the traditional
costumes of the various ethno-religious sub populations
or appointing their warlords in the administration.
It does not come by placing women here and there
sparsely throughout the administration's civil
service. Nation-building has a far broader meaning.
The nation-building project must eliminate all
ethno-religious and gender differences and create a
homogeneous Afghan nation. Using all instruments
available to it, from schooling to telecommunication,
cultural activities, and so on. The state must lead
social and cultural transformation from mini-state
identity to one defined as an Afghan-state identity
with equality for all. Optimism and words are one
thing but the Transitional Administration needs to the
match their words and the hope of the people with
meaningful progressive policies and enforcement. The
journey is long and treacherous but with commitment to
the cause and the right know-how it can be accomplished.
=========================================

[serenity]

WOW there are soooo many male muslim feminists out there... and what a popular thread

[Shibshib]

Sorry...what exactly are you upset about Serenity?

[afroz]

Umm... I am still waiting for anyone (especially those using the term) to please define the term:

Male Muslim Feminist.

I am not being sarcastic, but I really do not know what it means...

Salaam
Afroz

[serenity]

To me "Male muslim feminists" is a way of making the invisible visible, simply because I feel that such groups of people are rarely seen or heard. It's not to say however that 'muslim feminist' and 'male muslim feminists' have different perspectives; it's just great to point it out and talk about it, in order to legitimise the fact that it's okay to be a male muslim and a feminists. This may be quite essentialist but I just can't help to notice that it's a topic that most men fear and would rather ignore; hence this thread.

But it's also great to be able to have that minority that do care. So I guess I don't need to be sooo upset afterall...

[afroz]

Assalaam Alaikum,

The work that anyone who does to rightfully improve the situation or status of a gender or community is just plainly being a Muslim.

Why are we falling into continuous traps to keep labelling each other? Can we not be just GOOD MUSLIMS ??

What is a person who helps children as his passion, for the sake of Allah? Is that person not just being a good Muslim? Or do we need to find a label for that?

Most importantly, those who consider themselves a type of "feminist" let alone a Muslim feminist, should look at firstly, the historical motives of feminists, and secondly the results of such "feminists".

In the secular world, women who are proud to be women, and are content and successful, rarely lean towards "feminism", but towards humanity.

In Islam, not as a religion of the the world, but as a system of life as it ought to be, women who are proud to be human, have exactly the same sentiments, for the sake of Allah. They are not proud WOMEN per se, but proud Muslims. Period.

Sisters, be proud of your gender and use Islam for your advancement and protection. You do not need feminists.

Brothers, just be MEN, and be protectors of our sisters under Islamic guidelines. Give them equity and respect. You do not need to be the New Age Man.

Salaam
Afroz

[springOnion]

Well said Afroz

[Myst]

Indeed, well said Afroz. I don't see why muslims should associate themselves with feminists. Feminists, in western society at least (and I'm quite sure the same applies elsewhere), are largely secular, often criticise Islam for being "oppressive and sexist", seek PERFECT equality in assigning gender roles, laws and responsibilites - amongst other evil and unreasonable traits. So really, it amazes me why Muslims 'aspire' to associate themselves with feminists given the negative and secular connatations that exist with them. It is true, of course, that there are many cases (and many in 'muslim' countries) where women are oppressed and ill-treated. However, the answer lies not with feminism but with practising Islam like it was practised by the sahaba.

I think we need to understand the distinction between those who stand up to defend the rights of women that were given to them by Islam, and feminism. The two are a world apart.

[Shibshib]

Assalamu `alaikum everyone,

It seems to me that there is an extremely simplistic understanding of the term 'feminism' inherent in many of the posts on this thread. There seems to be an assumption that feminism is a particularly Western thing, and that it is all about making men and women the same. That same ignorance of what feminism actually is, pervades the Muslim world. We have more or less been taught that feminism is a dirty word. But almost none of us (especially the men) have ever studied feminist theory or even attempted to understand what it is.

Feminism is not a set of demands made by angry women. It is a theory to account for what happens in the world. It encompasses many theoretical models that are unspeakably diverse. Two people who call themselves feminists may disagree on almost everything.

We seem to have this erroneous idea that there is this thing called Islam and that it is the same to everyone who calls themselves a Muslim. That because we subscribe to the same religion, we are therefore destined to view the world in exactly the same way, and that if we do not, it is simply because some understand Islam and others do not.

That is not only a simplistic approach to Islam, but a simplistic approach to life and to humanity. It is a simple fact of life that Muslims have always viewed the world through differing paradigms. Some of us are more inclined to economic rationalism than others for example. From where did we get this idea that Islam necessarily excludes all other theories of human social behaviour? Rather these theories are essential to our existence as human beings, and our understanding of the varieties of cultures that exist. This is why Muslims were the first anthropologists for example. Islam doesn't simply tell you what to think. It gives you a framework through which you can view the world, but it does not stifle different individual approaches to reality.

Within our ummah there have always been different ways of looking at the world. This was the case with the sahaba, and it is the case with us today.

I used to be a critic of Muslim feminism. On reflection I realise that my criticism was borne of ignorance. I really did not understand what it was all about. I urge anyone who sees fit to criticise the idea of Muslim feminism, to learn something about feminist theory first. Until ideas such as patriarchy are first understood, it is ridiculous for us to come forth with criticisms. Feminism deals with issues on which the Islamic texts are largely silent, and therefore is worthy of as much consideration as any other theory - for example theories of physics.

To say that feminism is secular for example, is grossly inaccurate. Feminism may be secular, it may also be religious. It covers an extremely broad range of personal and political theories. Some Western feminists may simply see Islam as oppressive to women, but Muslim feminists certainly don't. Rather they see Islam as the very means to achieve the emancipation of women they desire. They do however make very valid comments about the influence of one's consciousness on the interpretations one gives to Islamic texts. Muslim feminists thus provide a powerful critique of the way in which Islamic law has been approached and applied in the past, and the way in which it can be approached and applied in the future. When anyone else engages in such an analysis we don't seem to have a problem. The minute it carries the 'f' word, we get jumpy.

Of-course, it is simply easier to say 'why can't we just call ourselves Muslims?' than to understand exactly what it is the Muslim feminists are saying. It is so easy to criticise a label one does not even understand. It is so easy to generalise about a theoretical approach in the same way many non-Muslims generalise about Muslims. But for some reason it is fine for Muslims to make such generalisations. It is only a problem when others do it to us.

Just some thoughts.

Ma salaama,

Shibshib.

[Bok]

Salams & G'day,

Quote

The work that anyone who does to rightfully improve the situation or status of a gender or community is just plainly being a Muslim.

Why are we falling into continuous traps to keep labelling each other? Can we not be just GOOD MUSLIMS ??

Afroz trying to delegitimise the name is a way of trying to delegitimise the concept. Being a 'child' of someone doesn't mean you can't be a 'parent' to someone else. We all have many identities and being a feminist is one part of my multi-faceted identity.

The reason why I chose to call myself a Muslim feminist is because I recognise as a Muslim that I am not perfect and cannot put my attention and time in every area that needs work. Feminist activisim is one part of the Islamic jigsaw puzzle that is supporting and establishing justice for weakened members of society. Because I believe Allah, swt, has called me to put a good part of my time and energy into working for justice for women where they are weakened members of society (particularly - sadly - Muslim societies), I call myself a feminist rather than an environmentalist, a social worker, a human-rights lawyer etc. etc. etc.

Quote

Most importantly, those who consider themselves a type of "feminist" let alone a Muslim feminist, should look at firstly, the historical motives of feminists, and secondly the results of such "feminists".

Would you be looking at the sufferagettes at the turn of the twentieth century? Or fieldworkers promoting safe health practices for illiterate, poor third-world women? Or lawyers testing cases of discrimination against women before the law? Or nuns providing education? Or Muslim women teaching other women about their rights in Islam?

Or are you thinking of the 'hairy armpits, male-bashing American lesbian?

Be honest Afroz!

If you *only* focus on some forms of feminism (which btw I would agree have more of a negative than positive impact ie. militant second wave feminism) then just like Shibshib says, it's like arguing that Islam can only be represented by militant Muslim fundamentalists.

Well for what it is worth this is the definition of feminism that my spouse and I developed:

A feminist is someone who believes that gender distinction does not have a value attached to it, and that therefore women (or men) should not be valued less or more (either practically or theoretically) because of their gender.

Moreover, a feminist activist is someone who engages in the struggle to abolish inequality of value placed on a person or people because of their female gender.

O humankind, verily We have created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is the most righteous (49:13).

Bok

[afroz]

Assalaam Alaikum,

It is always nice to be on the other end of a lively discourse from among intelligent friends. Bok and ShibShib are no exception being intellignet friends, so I hope to make a sincere effort, as always, to clarify my point of view, since this topic may not have a clear and definitive conclusion.

I do not have any issue with labels for the sake of defining one's profession, goals and aspirations, especially when it is aimed to do good. All those who fit your definition, Bok, are excellent in example to promote women's rights, if that is what they choose to pursue as part of Da'wah.

But that is where the problem lies. It is YOUR definition, using a concept which is quite different in reality from what the world defines it. All I am suggesting is that labels which are inappropriate given its inadequacy in definition should not be used for Islamic work. It is the same principle when interpreting The Qur'an. The words are important to convey the correct message.

Let me explain further, about this matter of definition...

(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English). This definition is similar to and utilised by all who support feminism in the secular west, so to speak (hmmm, another label ).

feminism
noun
the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power and chances as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state.

feminist
noun
A feminist is a person who believes in feminism, often being involved in activities that are intended to achieve change.

I would not want to now get into a definition war. I accept YOUR definition. I do not accept the world- view definition, that is the accepted standard. That is the point I am trying to make. It is all ok for us to redefine words for our purpose, so as long as it is for our own use. But to suggest that our own definitions somehow applies to the rest is not reality.

In Islam, the actions with intention of any adult, regardless of gender, is the defining factor for Allah. Furthermore, Allah clearly mentions that men and women are NOT the same and are NOT awarded the same rights and treatment.

The form of responsibilities, compassion and courtesy that our Prophet asked to be shown to women is different from that which is to men. Treatment of men and women, are different, yet both positive and right.

Allah revealed a whole Surah and then revealed many more verses throughout the Qur'an, regarding women. He did not call the Surah An Nisaa by any name connotating feminism, nor is the Message promoting so. What it does promote is a balance in equity. A balance in Rights. Human Rights.

We can define, and redefine the word "feminist" as much as we like, but let us look further at this word...

RAWA, an organisation which promotes women's rights in Afghanistan, and doing an excellent job at that, defines its goal to "advocate equal rights and opportunities for women, especially the extension of the social and political activities in equal footing with men..." I am not going to dissect this, but I am sure organisations like RAWA, run by Muslim sisters, are making great feminsit- conditioning effects in the minds of the world than you and me trying to re- define the very word. I am an active individual promoting Women's rights through Amnesty International, and I have had people tell me they believe that EQUALITY, dress codes without hijab, right to same sex partners are Islamically tolerable conduct, ALL based on presumptions of what RAWA promotes as being "women's rights"... This is only ONE organisation. Historically, if we are to be really honest, can we say any different of most mainstream feminist organisations?

Surely, you are not going to suggest that this is not the face of feminism in reality. Islam's stance on women's rights is assuredly different to that of the feminists of the secular west. So, to use such labels which not only confuses, but actually misrepresents, is irresponsible. The very act one intends to do righteously, that is to rightfully promote women's rights, is weakened and distorted by the very label- feminism.

Your intent is superb. so are the intents of many who passionately give their time for such great causes. But feminism it ain't. What it is, is that you are advocating womens' rights and its place in society. That is Islamic. however, it is far far far from what feminism is, overall, all about.

Hairy armpits is but only one face of feminism, and not the mainstream anyway. So is the case about militancy in Islamic circles. To suggest these as some justification to the ends, is a bit like "shock treatment" therapy to the readers. The focus is taken away from the subject matter by the sensalisation of an element within the subject matter.

I am actually lost in trying to give a name for what you, and many others do, i.e., secure the rightful place for women in the human society. Maybe, we could start a thread to seek alternatives. But then maybe you are happy with the term "feminism".

So be it, and good luck. May Allah give you peserverence and insight in standing up for and promote the Islamic Principles in appropriately elevating women.

Please forgive any misconceptions or shortcomings in my point of view.

Allah- humma tahhar Quloobina wa ja'alna fee Quloobina Noora.
Salaamun Alaikum
Afroz

[Bok]

Salams again Afroz,

Ameen to your prayer and as always it is wonderful to discuss topics with you.

My argument would simply be that you are defining only one face of feminism, but there are many, many feminists who do not define feminism in the way that you've commonly understood it. This is particularly the case in the *cough* post-feminist era, and among third-wave / indiginous feminists.

My computer is playing funny buggers so I'm going to post this and then continue with the other half of what I wanted to say in the next post insha'Allah.

wasalam

Bok

[afroz]

Wa Alaikum Assalaam, Bok,

To the contrary, Im not seeing my definition,as just one aspect of feminism but that it in fact is the reality of the definition and use of the word. And so it makes it, in my opinion, unsuitable to use for Muslims advocating women's values in society. Hence to my point in the original post, that women who are doing more than just promote equal rights, per se, are not referred to as feminists, but as successful women. this also applies to men who advocate and promote gender equity and balance values.

What you, and people like you are doing is the right thing to do, in instilling proper values and acceptance of the rightful status of women in society, and is greatly honourable and rewarding, but are using the wrong term, it being wrong simply due to those who are secular feminists are not doing the right thing....hmmm... It becomes Islamically contradictory.

What about words/ phrases like : "Womens Rights Advocates" or "Womentors" (women's mentors ), or seriously, better still "Muslimah Advocates".

Salaam
Afroz

[Bok]

Sorry Afroz bro, I'm a feminist through and through. I don't want feminism to simply stand for the views of one particular brand of feminism. Please feel free to browse through some of the passages and quotes from feminists that I've posted in another thread.

Kind regards wasalam

Bok

[afroz]

I have no problem with that Bok, and may Allah help you in your aspirations to bring change for correct values in our society in this regard.

My final point of clarification: I do not see your work, or those who promote a rightful balance, to be one- faceted, but most noble and righteous.

I do see that those who do not spring forth from this correct position, who happen to be the vast majority, are the real reflections of the term "feminism", hence Islamically contradictory.

Salaam
Afroz

[Shibshib]

Assalamu `alaikum everyone,

Afroz, I guess the point is that such approaches are not the 'real reflections' of the term 'feminism', any more than terrorists are the 'real reflections' of the term 'Islam'. I fail to see why those who subscribe to certain feminist theories should be shackled by the ignorance of those who have never studied it.

If anything, when people call themselves Muslim feminsts and engage others about the substance of their work and their aims, such people can be pioneers in the reshaping of the image of feminism in the public imagination.

But why be enslaved to ignorance?

Ma salaama,

Shibshib.

[afroz]

Wa Alaikum Assalaam,

I respect and accept those who want to be called feminists, or Muslim feminists, and are doing a proper job of it. As, I think we all agree, it is a label/ definition.

The ignorance is not in wanting to suggest that the useage of the term is Islamically contradictory based on its REAL and widespread useage, but in choosing to ignore this very fact.

Salaam
Afroz

[Bok]

Afroz mate that's just not true. If you take any feminist studies class at any Uni practically the first thing you learn is that feminism has many different and varied forms. There might be a widespread misconception of what feminism is and Susan Faludi's book "Backlash" examines the problem that feminism is perceived as a 'dirty word', but Afroz mate, at least read a good current book on feminism before saying that. Really, it's like Bernard Lewis insisting that the real meaning of "Islam" is fundamentalism!!!

Bok

[afroz]

Assalaam Alaikum Bok,

I shall read more on the subject, Insha Allah.... then bug you more!

I am very much aware of the CHANGING trends in the feminism education, etc, especially at universities.... maybe it is in the right direction and the new generation will finally redefine the word through example.

It seems that you are in a feminist circle quite different from mine. I also suggest that you might want to read my post on "Fundamentalism- The Othe Viewpoint". Again, the very word is used contradictory to its meaning!!! In some circles, fundamentalism is good as it sticks to the fundamentals (!!!), but religious application by western literature makes it a dirty word. But that is another topic....

How are you any ways Bok?

Salaam
Afroz

[Bok]

wa'alaykumusalam Afroz,

Not too badly alhamdulillah. My head has recovered from crashing into the BBQ during the cricket game. (I'm blaming it on the shoes).

Time is whizzing by eh? I can't believe TTC was a coupla months ago.

Bok

[afroz]

You batted well though :wink:

Yes, time does pass by ever so quickly, Subhaan Allah.

And, before time passes me by, I better polish up on reading more on feminism!

Salaam
Afroz

[GreenOz]

Quote

Not too badly alhamdulillah. My head has recovered from crashing into the BBQ during the cricket game. (I'm blaming it on the shoes). 

Time is whizzing by eh? I can't believe TTC was a coupla months ago.

Yeah, tell me about it, I missed ya too after da TTC, even though most of my mind and time was spent elsewhere :wink:

As for the cricket game, you're a champ!

As a brand of feminism, I have been called that a few times by non-Muslims only. I have never been called that by Muslims. BUT, when non-Muslims call me a Muslim feminist or Islamic feminist, I have always corrected them and told them that I am a Muslimah pure and simple. I dont see my views as anything other than that of a Muslim flavour as I dont see how advocating or exercising women's rights in islam is anything other than just exercising Islamic principles.

I am a Muslimah through and through 8)

my 2 cents worth

Peace
Hanan

[Bok]

Of course that's fair enuf, I know a fair few people who would fit into my category of feminism but don't use the label feminist to describe themselves. Then again my spouse was telling me the other day that I'm definitely "conservative" and I always thought I was a leftie liberal (with a small L) so hehehe.

Bok