[Ziver]

According to Mrs Amanda Vanstone, "There are no refugees in Australian detention centres".

In an interview responding to Merlin Luck's TV protest on Sunday 13 June on Big Brother, the current Immigration Minister, Amanda Vanstone, said that Luck "is obviously not very well informed. The sign he had said 'Free the Refugees'. There are no refugees in Australian detention centres."

In case you missed it, Merlin was the young man who was evicted from the Big Brother house and sat there on live prime-time live television, his lips sealed with black tape, holding a piece of fabric with the message "FREE TH REFUGEES", and refused to talk to host of the show Gretel Killeen.

Using Vanstone's ridiculous logic, one could equally argue that there are no Australians in the Australian parliament - because they are all European settlers and immigrants.

In any event, I just visited three people (2 Iranians and an Afghan) who are seeking refuge in Australia in Villawood Detention Centre yesterday 16 June. If what Vanstone says is true, maybe they were backpackers in detention or refugees who mistakenly checked in at the Villawood Backpackers Hostel!!

Whatever they are, they are human beings seeking refuge with us and deserve better.

This Sunday 20 June is World Refugee Day. There's a rally and festival starting at 1pm at Hyde Park North, Sydney.

http://forums.muslim...opic.php?t=5217

Please see my post above for more and join us on a fun day out.

Ziver

[Sista]

Quote

Using Vanstone's ridiculous logic, one could equally argue that there are no Australians in the Australian partiament - because they are all European settlers and immigrants.

Whatever they are, they are human beings seeking refuge with us and deserve better.

[Sarah]

omg how hectic was merlin from big brother. that was hecticness to the max man far out. I couldn't stop laughing when gretel talked to his dad and his dad talked like the terminator. That killed it, i couldn't stop laughing.

[Jaydee]

Hectic?

Interesting but strange choice of words there.

[La`Dee]

@ hectic-- i must say it suites the mood of Sarah's avatar.. :wink:

[idriys]

I can remember young Merlin as a schoolboy; in Bellingen, nr Coffs Harbour; and his father, Thomas, is reputed to have inherited his money. I do not think that he, a German, is in a position to pontificate about refugees: I would like to know how it is that these 'refugees' actually got into Australia: from daras-salam to daral-harb; surely they didn't fall for all that multiculturalism hype! Any one who paid a ton of Yankee dollars for the use of a dodgy travel agent to gatecrash Australia should not, prima face, be regarded as a likely candidate for citizenship: convicts & conmen belong to the nineteenth century. Real applicants for refugee status (asylum seekers) do so from abroad; those others are probably either fools or think that we are. :x Detained=busted for big fibs.

[Ziver]

Dear idriys,

I must disagree with you that a German Australian should have a lesser right to a point of view or an opinion than (say) an English Australian. After all, apart from proper Australians (aka Australian Aboriginals) who sadly don't get much say at all - yet, everyone else is ipso facto a "a something or other" Australian. A Lebanese Australian, Italian Australian, Chinese Australian etc. These are not my labels, but those perpetuated by the media and adopted mainly by Anglo Australians - except of course the term "English Australians" which is not used by English Australians!!!

As for refugees and how and why they came from where and for what reason, it is important to differentiate between illegal immigrants and refugees. Most of the people in Australian detention centres are in fact illegal immigrants who tried to sneak into the country or overstayed their visas. As I understand it, there are only a few hundred refugees held in these razorwire encampments.

A refugee seeks refuge, for whatever reason, from his/her country of origin. And of course a refugee will go where they can, however they can to seek refuge.

Article 14 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:

1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

2. This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Notice the caveat in item 2. Sadly, Australia is the only so called "civilised" (Europeanised) nation where people (men, women and children) who seek refuge are detained with diminished rights against their will for no wrongdoing whatsoever other than fleeing from persecution.

This is an internationally embarrassing problem that the current or future government must address - if for no other reason than to bring Australia back into compliance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Ziver

PS. What sort of security are you involved in? Anything to do with refugees?
PPS. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

[bobali]

Quote

Quote

Using Vanstone's ridiculous logic, one could equally argue that there are no Australians in the Australian partiament - because they are all European settlers and immigrants.

Whatever they are, they are human beings seeking refuge with us and deserve better.

how hypocritical are these settlers , deciding who stays and who leaves this country, treating it like their own.

[Sarah]

hectic= full on!!!!

bobali- i know!!!!!!1 they're so inhumane, i just dont believe in the concept of locking ppl up like that for so many years!!!!!!1 for God's sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111



the land belong's to no one but Allah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[idriys]

Ziver said:

Quote

I must disagree with you that a German Australian should have a lesser right to a point of view or an opinion than (say) an English Australian.

Quote

PS. What sort of security are you involved in? Anything to do with refugees?

In the first instance: nothing to do with what 'kind of australian' but the history of Germany in the Second World War; in particular regard to Concentration Camps, final solutions, Untermenshen, and ALL OF THAT!
I am suggesting that he may be trying to make up for whatever it was that his grandparents & their brothers may or not have done then.

In the second place: Derogatory personal comments are unexpected from someone who quotes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights at me, just because I ask a question that both myself and another brother (who is proud to call himself a REAL Australian, not just a couple of generations one, like me) have very strong feelings about.
The question arises out of our understanding of Islam: please reply to the question, or consider yourself to have failed the exam: as they would tell you in a University. You begin to sound like a New Age yuppie fascist: maybe you should move to Bellingen. politically-correct: ethically-inept!

[Ziver]

Dear idriys,

Like Merlin, and everyone else on God's earth, you too are entitled to your opinions, for whatever reason you have them and for whatever mitigating circumstances that may have led you to think them.

Some words of wisdom from Mevlâna Celâleddin Rumî come to mind:

"Seek the wisdom
that will untie your knot
seek the path
that demands your whole being.
Leave that which is not, but appears
to be
seek that which is, but is
not apparent."

Keep well my friend,

Ziver

[idriys]

'My opinion' is not my opinion: & I really don't think that the UN Declaration of Human Rights should be taken as abrogating the Qur'an: viz: simply consider house to also refer to country, city, field or other enclosed lands, or going into a place without proper authorisation, such as a valid ticket or visa. The legal issue is the same, whether under Common Law or Shari'a.
Al-Nur (The Light) - (Arabic)

24:27 O ye who believe! enter not houses other than your own, until ye have asked permission and saluted those in them: that is best for you, in order that ye may heed (what is seemly).

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Greeting] [Houses manners about entering] [Manners:about entering houses] [Permission asking before entering]
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَدْخُلُوا بُيُوتًا غَيْرَ بُيُوتِكُمْ حَتَّى تَسْتَأْنِسُوا وَتُسَلِّمُوا عَلَى أَهْلِهَا ذَلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ

My opinon is that there are ahadith which refer to this matter, as well as the fatawa concerning travelling to dar al harb: can any of these self-styled asylum-seekers claim to be have come here in order to make dawa? Perhaps so, but only as a side-effect, qadarulLahu ma sha'a facala!
In short, legal until they decided to travel further than the present reaches of dar as-salaam.
One might ask: guilty of being a muslim, or of not being a muslim? :?

[Ziver]

Quote

'My opinion' is not my opinion: & I really don't think that the UN Declaration of Human Rights should be taken as abrogating the Qur'an

Who said it was?

Quote

The legal issue is the same, whether under Common Law or Shari'a.

No it is not. You're trying hard to make a connection where there is no connection.

Quote

24:27 O ye who believe! enter not houses other than your own, until ye have asked permission and saluted those in them: that is best for you, in order that ye may heed (what is seemly).

What's that got to do with the price of fish? Where in the Koran is there any reference to not giving help or refuge to someone in need who comes to you for your help? Where in the Koran does it say you should deny them their freedom and treat them like criminals?

Quote

My opinon is that there are ahadith which refer to this matter, as well as the fatawa concerning travelling to dar al harb: can any of these self-styled asylum-seekers claim to be have come here in order to make dawa?  Perhaps so, but only as a side-effect, qadarulLahu ma sha'a facala!
In short, legal until they decided to travel further than the present reaches of dar as-salaam.
One might ask: guilty of being a muslim, or of not being a muslim? :?

My opinion is that you mean well, but for some reason you are unable or unwilling to show your love and charity towards people. I don't understand why you are trying so hard to make an issue out of something that is so very basic - the right of people to seek assylum and the giving of charity to help others less fortunate than you.

See http://forums.muslim...opic.php?t=5047

Love is a wonderful thing idriys. Embrace it and it embaces you back. Help someone today. If you can't help someone, make someone you don't know smile.

Ziver

[idriys]

I've asked the question, the reply is one that I've learnt to expect from the politically-correct parasites which infect the age: agree with the social-darwinism of the jahili intellectual elite, or get the boot put in: in the NICEST possible way, of course. You seem to want to ignore the question, and make out that I am somehow at fault for having asked it. But that is only my opinion, having had to wear all of this new age fascist twistings of what is good and what is not: and having been attacked, as you are doing now, and by means of whispered rumours, and by verbal and physical assault: yes, we are allowed to have our own opinions: so long as we keep them under wraps. You have not yet answered the question: kill me, if that stops me from asking it;it has been tried before, so don't expect much from that line of argument. These people were not shipwrecked here: they came without asking, when they could have asked from afar: and been made most welcome: for so it has been for many years. I ignore that, and the peril is greater than you seem to think. But Allah knows best. I know where my blood was spilt, and who spilt it , and why: what is your problem?

[WoeUntoThee]

Allahu alem, for me, the fact is not whether they fulfilled their religious obligations(for all we know, they are not practicing muslims), but whether we are going to fulfil our religious obligations, by giving a bunch of opressed people, with no civil liberty a helping hand. The priority given to muslims is for obvious reasons; the issue of brotherhood in islam can never be emphasised enough. (Recommended reading: Imam Al - Ghazali's (ra) "Brotherhood in islam")

As for what brother idrys said, i agree; they got themselves into that situation. Perhaps we should try to get them out?

[Seeker]

Gratuitous use of colons instigating severe disorientation.

[Ziver]

Quote

I've asked the question, the reply is one that I've learnt to expect from the politically-correct parasites which infect the age: agree with the social-darwinism of the jahili intellectual elite, or get the boot put in: in the NICEST possible way, of course.  You seem to want to ignore the question, and make out that I am somehow at fault for having asked it. But that is only my opinion, having had to wear all of this new age fascist twistings of what is good and what is not: and having been attacked, as you are doing now, and by means of whispered rumours, and by verbal and physical assault: yes, we are allowed to have our own opinions: so long as we keep them under wraps. You have not yet answered the question: kill me, if that stops me from asking it;it has been tried before, so don't expect much from that line of argument. These people were not shipwrecked here: they came without asking, when they could have asked from afar: and been made most welcome: for so it has been for many years. I ignore that, and the peril is greater than you seem to think. But Allah knows best.  I know where my blood was spilt, and who spilt it , and why: what is your problem?

Dear idriys,

Wow, that's a lot of issues you have going there.

I hope you will excuse me if I do not try to reply to your rant in great detail. I feel it will only serve to stoke the fire that you have in you and make things worse for you. No amount of reason I can muster is going to help calm your mind or sooth your soul. So, instead, I will pray for you.

I will however to say just one thing. Look to the Koran for the wonder and beauty of God, and you will find it. Look to the Koran to justify bad thoughts and deeds, and you will only see yourself looking in a mirror.

Keep well my friend.

Ziver

[idriys]

enough of pompous pontificting: you don't want to recognise the question: are you afraid of the answers? Or should I simply recognise that I should put the question to someone who has the ability to look into it? That person is, obviously, not Ziver. And I shall say no more on it, here. I thank the others for their replies, which show reason.
AS FOR POETRY:
Rage cannot tether, nor Kindness stall,
Whom perverse Desire holds in thrall.

[Mowlana Vector]

Quote

I've asked the question, the reply is one that I've learnt to expect from the politically-correct parasites which infect the age ...


Given your uncompromising luvvvvvvvvvvv for your detained Ummah here in Oz, just thougth U might also be interested in some of these "PC parasites" (influenced) facts & figures, commonly known in educated circles as the “New Age yuppie fascist” propaganda.


(image courtesy of Alan Moir, SMH, 7 July2004)

Mind you, you’re not the sad lone (Muslim) voice railing against your fellow Muslim asylum seekers; in this forum we had witnessed some pathetic neo-Hansonite ‘Muslim’ apathy towards these dehumanised and demonised election winners b4

... and thanks to the brave Merlins of this land, there's no doubt that there are more 'non-muslim' pro-asylum seekers activists from outside the community than from the inside.



However, what I’m interested here, is to find out, how come u seem to find Howard/Ruddock/Vanstone's (insert ur fav media apologists) ‘official’ lies (oops I mean, lines) more trustworthy than those desperate Muslim refuge-seekers who came from far places to seek some help from “real” Aussie (Muslims) like yourself?

How (Un)Australian, indeed!



Keep Them Locked Up: Howard



Irony Inc: Former Detainee to Travel to Iraq For Dad's Funeral



'Queue-Jumpers' Win Against Odds

Costly Welcome

Reporting Refugees

A Last Resort?

Islam’s Stance on Refugees




In Defense of My Howardite Mate

[Mowlana Vector]

A damning report by the Auditor-General, released two weeks ago, showed initial detention arrangements with private prison operators Australian Centre Management to be a farce. Appalling hygiene and frequent escapes perpetuated by ACM's lackadaisical attitude to detainees was highlighted as a failure of the immigration department.

With a second report by the Auditor-General expected to detail arrangements with ACM's replacement Global Systems Management later this year, the department maintains it has learned from its mistakes in 2001. As does the Government.

More Here ...

Quote

The Sydney Morning Herald Editorial: Letting the Children Go
The sorry chapter is not really closed. Eleven children remain in detention on Christmas Island, where they have languished for a year, after the navy towed them from Port Hedland; and 19 are on Nauru. But for the \"Pacific solution\", they would be in Australia, free. There are also 30 children at the Villawood Detention centre in Sydney, the children of visa overstayers. Children are also in special housing, monitored, and separated from their fathers.

Continue Reading here ...

[idriys]

As-salaam cAlaykum wa rahmatulLah: Considering that the last time I checked this strand, it had been closed to further comment, this latest entry is a bit rich: once again: I know why my blood has been shed and by whom. Why don't you go check it all out at the Bellingen Court House records, then check out the persons who were charged and found guilty of assault, and see how Green and politically-correct & open-minded they are, according to their own lights, then ask yourself if they might not be hypocrits. As for the compulsory detention, what normally happens to people who enter by furtive means? and what does Islam teach about that? What to about them is one question, and the answer is in the hands of the Australian Govt., where else? AS FOR potential candidates for people-smuggling, how may they be persuaded from the error of furtive entry and its concommitant detention: do they not trust in Allah :?: Just because I have little sympathy for the seemingly-foolish does not infer hard-heartedness on my part: it is my experience that some people just do not want to hear, nor see, what is there for all to see. It never ceases to amaze me, the strong reaction that a reasonable question evokes, rarely ever do I see a response :!: and if you think that I don't understand tribulation, try four nights in hospital with a head wound, without pain-killers (neurological obsevation), then you may lecture me about freedom, and torture, and things like that.

[Mowlana Vector]

"Idriys said:

... Considering that the last time I checked this strand, it had been closed to further comment, this latest entry is a bit rich: ...

"Idriys said:

once again: I know why my blood has been shed and by whom.  Why don't you go check it all out at the Bellingen Court House records, then check out the persons who were charged and found guilty of assault, and see how Green and politically-correct & open-minded they are, according to their own lights, then ask yourself if they might not be hypocrits.   

Still don't know what r u on about and what "court house records" r u refering to?
The only thing I know about Bellingen (thanx 2 'sheikh google' ) is that Merlin Luck resides there (scroll down). Is there anything I should know that we in these forums don't know, please share your insights (with evidence) with us :idea: otherwise I'm sorry I can't help you with your ideologically-driven tedious assertions.

Quote

...
Just because I have little sympathy for the seemingly-foolish does not infer hard-heartedness on my part: it is my experience that some people just do not want to hear, nor see, what is there for all to see. It never ceases to amaze me, the strong reaction that a reasonable question evokes, rarely ever do I see a response

Brother, may Allah(swt) help us all to fully comprehend and see the bitter realities facing despondent and demonised group of people who're desperately seeking the help of 'our' civilised, freedom loving and humanitarian government.

W'salam

[Mowlana Vector]

said:

... just because I ask a question that both myself and another brother (who is proud to call himself a REAL Australian, not just a couple of generations one, like me) have very strong feelings about.

http://forums.muslim...ighlight=#53960 (Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:59 am)

[and]

said:

To label oneself as Australian is just as meaningless as any of the other labels that people like to wear, such as NIKE, KFC, DKNY, Socialist, Green, gay, or jihadist.

http://forums.muslim...ighlight=#55400 (Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:12 am)   

Please explain

[Mowlana Vector]

[Mowlana Vector]

Australia Eases Rules For Refugees
Al-jazeera (13 July 2004)

Australia's government has moved to relax tough immigration rules, allowing thousands of refugees to be granted permanent residence ahead of this year's election.


Asylum seekers arriving by boat
have found the going tough

Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone said on Tuesday that 9500 asylum seekers who hold three-year "temporary protection visas", which released them from detention and allowed them to seek work, could now apply for permanent visas.

The majority of those on temporary protection visas are Afghan and Iraqi boatpeople.

The decision follows a string of immigration policy reversals, including a decision to allow 146 Afghans detained on Nauru for more than two years to come to Australia in a winding back of Canberra's so-called "Pacific Solution".

The back flips follow an unrelenting campaign by human rights groups, refugee activists, some journalists and even government MPs for a softening of the tough policy which helped Prime Minister John Howard win the 2001 election.

"(This) will ensure that Australia's border integrity is maintained, our international obligations to refugees are met and that those making a significant contribution to the Australian community are able to remain here," Vanstone said in a statement.

Conservative government

Australia accepts 13000 people on refugee and humanitarian grounds each year, but asylum seekers entering illegally are held with illegal workers and visa overstayers in detention centres while their cases are handled, which can take years.


Detainees had protested
at the Curtin Detention Centre

In 1999, in response to a surge in illegal immigrants arriving by boat, the conservative government created "temporary protection visas" for those who proved they were eligible for protection under the United Nations Refugees Convention.

Vanstone said many "temporary protection visa" holders were now working in rural areas in jobs usually hard to fill.

Prime Minister John Howard, criticised for sealing borders to asylum seekers arriving by boat, denied the new plans softened the government's hardline on illegal immigration that helped it retain power at the last election in November 2001.

Only three boatloads of would-be refugees have reached Australian waters since the conservative government began deploying the navy to intercept and divert boats to nearby Pacific islands three years ago.

A total of 865 asylum seekers remain in detention centres.
Agencies



SEE ALSO

Opportunism Rampant as TVP's Become Permanent

A Victory in Campaign For Justice For Refugees

Is Australia Ending The Pacific Solution?

Refugees Get High-Profile Friends


(Image courtesy of SMH's Alan Moir)

Three Years Locked up, Waiting For A Visa

Refugee Change Just 'Ballot Box Compassion': Brown

Border Protection Policy Stolen, Latham Says

Refugee Visas to Change: PM


(Ron Tandberg, The AGE, 14 July 2004)

[Mowlana Vector]

Congratulations Mr. Howard (and 2 those other Howardite wanabees & cronies ), U certainly proved your creditionals as one of the most ‘pro-family’ compassionate conservative(s) we've ever seen ...
======================================================

Councillors Emerge From Baxter Dazed, Inspired
By: Martin Boulton
The AGE ( 9 September 2004)


Melbourne councillors at the Baxter centre, from left, Joseph Caputo,
Marlene Kairiuz, Kay Meadows, Stephen Roach, Rae Perry, Susan Corby,
Sam Alesi and Dick Gross.
Picture:Jonathan Brooks

Councillors from six Melbourne metropolitan municipalities visited the Baxter Detention Centre near Port Augusta yesterday and left feeling "shell-shocked and uplifted at the same time".

Darebin Mayor Rae Perry said councils increasingly had to "pick up the pieces" when detainees were released and the 10 councillors wanted to gain an insight on conditions at the centre.

"This visit will strengthen council's role as a service provider to refugees and assert our position as an advocate on behalf of temporary protection visa refugees," she said.

An Immigration Department spokesman said that on July 30 across Melbourne there were 1700 people on temporary protection visas.

Yarra Mayor Kay Meadows said the group felt "incredibly emotional" after hearing tales from the 15 detainees they met of families torn apart by detention.

"This is an important issue for the Yarra community," Cr Meadows said. "We're developing a refugee policy to help support our community agencies and this was an incredible insight to the human side . . . and what we have to do . . . it leaves you with a real fire in your belly."

Port Phillip Mayor Dick Gross said it was "not only inhumane, but economically irrational" to keep people in detention, when local communities could help them.
=============================


How Many Children Are in Detention?

[La`Dee]

I don't want to go off topic but.....

Welcome Back 4UEyez

You were missed, or if not missed.. you were asked about! Here's the proof

[Mowlana Vector]

Asalamu Alaikum,

La`Dee, on Sep 10 2004, 04:56 AM, said:

I don't want to go off topic but.....
Welcome Back 4UEyez
You were missed, or if not missed.. you were asked about! Here's the proof  

Thanks Sis for your very kind welcome. Greatly appreciated
Yes, it's good 2 be back after a short break .... and I guess it's time for some digital punishment for those conspiracy theorists of this cool village …

W'salaam

[Moby]

HEY HEY UR BAACK>.