[Niche]

Hasaan, on Mar 30 2007, 12:49 PM, said:

There is a different cultural conditioning driving these actions, but it has nothing to do with the religion of Islam.

Muslims have NOT been given the job of murdering the ignorant and misguided people. We are told by God to be patient with them and offer Islam to them using our intelligence and good manners and to be strikingly upright in our morals and character so that there is no hypocrisy in our spreading of a peaceful, tolerant religion.

Hmmm, there is a ruling in fiqh against those that slander, speak ill or foul mouth, belittle, hurt, scorn and so much more, against the Prophet.

A lay muslim is given the authority to kill that person!

This is to the agreement of all Fuqaha and 'ulama with the only disagreement between them being deciding whether or not ( if it was done by a Muslim) that the person is killed and is thought of as a believer or disbeliever. The minority opinion ( extreme minority) being that they think of him as a believer.

If this is merely against the Prophet, then what say of the word of Allah! His most noble Holy book in which there is direct speech to us all?

No amount of PC can change this and there is no two ways about it. If the teacher indeed denigrated the Quran then Allah will also add a torment far worse than her death at the hands of these youth.

I initially liked what you wrote and now when you explain further I dissagree completely.

If a person just stands there and takes someone cursing our religon, our Prophet and Allah, then all I have to say is that they are a coward, a disgustingly weak faithed coward for which no amount of shying away under the pretense of "da'wa" will suffice as an intention. That's crap and a cop out and they simply have no ghira over our religon, Allah and his Messenger.

And you'd be suprised. You denigrate the Prophet here and a youth, as non practising as they are will take a bat straight to your head without hesitation and before you can complete your sentence or statement.

They may not have manners, they may not practise but they sure as hell have ghira and that is much more weighty than a friendly (read: cowardly) acceptance of anyone mentioning an ill word about our beloved Allah, His Messenger ( or any of them for that matter) or our Holy book (or any of the holy books for that matter).

My cousin ( as non practising as he was) was about to belt the crap out of a guy that wore a shirt that said @#$! Jesus. He literally made this supposed tough looking punk quiver in his pants as he was about to maul him and forced him to take his shirt off in the middle of the street. Bad adab? yeh, maybe, but not worse than the idiot wearing that shirt thinking he has a right to free expression. He doesn't and he learnt the hard way!

If non Muslims aren't disrespecting our book, the Prophets or Allah or our scholars then what's the hoohaa? Surely they don't expect to be afforded the right to slander and disrespect as they please and get off scott free. It aint happening, not if there is a single Muslim soul left on this earth! Alhamdullillah!

Read the Shifa' of Qadi 'iyad where there is a very detailed section about those who denigrate the Prophet. See for yourself the multiple references to Scholars. This is a book over 1000 years old accepted by all madthabs, all sects, all groups. This is the pinnacle of praiseworthy books about our Prophet

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Clearly, we live in a time where this is rare, and the media ignores Muslims who have good manners and focuses instead on those who are unbalanced and confused. The truth about Muslims is too boring, and needs to be spiced up before it is presented to the general public.

We live in hope that a major non-Muslim media network may one day be brave enough to challenge the popular stereotypes that currently dominate society.

There is no unbalance in a brother who has this much ghira over his religon, nor a sister.

This is nothing more than a presentation by the media to say "hey people look what happens. These muslims are so barbaric (passionate and sincere) that they will kill us if we disagree (disrespect, denigrate speak ill of) Allah and his Prophet.

Because society has already been brainwashed to think "Anything goes" then all they have to do is present something that opposes this "anything goes" attitude for it to be a stink up.

Sneaky, not clever. Bad intentioned and provoking not fair and liberal.

Human, on Mar 30 2007, 01:21 PM, said:

But ... what is the Quran? 



It seems to me that these boys have denied the Oneness of God, not protected it.  They have mistaken the word of Allah for a processed tree.  Surely, if you really respect the Quran you act on its message.  You only disrespect the Quran by disrespecting its message.

What is the Quran? Wow, I didn't think non Muslims could be that shallow. That's like saying pffftt, so what who is your mother to you? She's nothing, throw her away. Or so what if that is your child, he/she is nothing give them up for adoption, put them in a dumpster, etc etc....... only amplify that by infinity times!

The Quran is the direct word of Allah. To you and others, you may not be able to comprehend this with your over-materialistic minds. To you it seems like ink and paper. To us, His direct Merciful speech to humanity that deserves the utmost of adoration.

Let me give you another example,

Hamza Yusuf a reknown Muslim scholar was once cleaning his fingernails with a pen in Mauritania and was hit in the head by a rock by one of his fellow students who said to him "HAMZA!!! Allah has sworn by the pen" - Laqad AQSAM!- a qasm being a very powerful sworn testimony let alone it being from Allah.

This is the depth for which the Quran internalised with these seemingly humble bedouin like desert dwellers. To the so called sophisticated intellectual, nothing but "Rag heads". Infront of Allah though, awliya of the highest order.... his saints and chosen representatives who internalise Allah's every word into every cell in their body until he becomes "the eyes in which they see with, the ears by which they hear with, the hand by which they strike with and the feet which they stride with...." because of their closeness to Allah.

A mere passage in the Quran caused this bedoin to show such respect to a PEN!!!! a mere PEN!!! Just because Allah has mentioned it and sworn by it in the Quran. Over there, they decorate and take care of their pens. Here, what do we do with them..... I'll leave it to your minds to remember.

What then do you think we Muslims feel over the word of Allah? One chapter, one verse, one word, let alone the whole holy book????

Your response is one void of spiritual understanding and perfectly representative of the materialistic over simplification of our most respected and beloved holy book.

[Taliban Princess]

Hasaan, on Mar 30 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

He didn't. Read his post carefully.

Erm, I did. This is what Human said:

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But ... what is the Quran?

It seems to me that these boys have denied the Oneness of God, not protected it.  They have mistaken the word of Allah for a processed tree.  Surely, if you really respect the Quran you act on its message.

How I interpret that, and Human still hasn't clarified what he meant, is that these students got carried away with the desecration of the Qur'an, when all the Qur'an is [tawbah, tawbah] a mere book.

Firstly it's not "just" a book as evidenced by how we touch it and where we place it in our homes, Masjids and so on. It is *always* elevated because it's not a "mere" book, or a processed tree.

Human, what did you mean by this, then?

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You're a bit too oversensitive for dawah sis. You need a thicker skin and an open heart.

Hassan I don't know how much you know about me but I'm quite active in Da'wah both at a personal and professional level. Considering it's a Fardh act, we all should be.

And yes, I've very sensitive when it comes to my faith, just as you should be. When you love something more than life itself, of course you'll defend it vigorously when it's attacked.

You and I were raised very differently, and I am also somewhat older than you, so my upbringing may have differed to yours too. But ever since I can remember, I was always taught to respect our Kitab: to make sure you were clean before you touched it, and to place it high up in your house when you were done reading it. This was, and is, no ordinary book.

We are to love Allah swt and the words He swt sent to us more than our own children Hassan. More than our own mother. So when someone maligns the Qur'an or says words to the effect of..."Hey, relax, it's only a processed tree"...I *do* find it offensive. Just as I'd find it offensive if someone said something about the Torah or Bible. Even if I think the Bible is distorted, I'd still defend anyone who tried to desecrate a copy of it or threw it around in a library or what have you.

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You only disrespect the Quran by disrespecting its message

And in answer to that Human, I'd say, no: there are in fact a myriad of ways of disrespecting Qur'an.

Anyway I'd still like to know what Human meant by this whole 'processed tree' thing.

Over to you Human for some more illumination.

[Hasaan Fatal]

Niche, on Apr 2 2007, 11:50 PM, said:

If a person just  stands there and takes someone cursing our religon, our Prophet and Allah, then all I have to say is that they are a coward, a disgustingly weak faithed coward for which no amount of shying away under the pretense of "da'wa" will suffice as an intention. That's crap and a cop out ...

Okay. That's what I have been satisfied to do, so I guess that's what I am.

Ta.

[AbuAnna]

Taliban Princess, on Apr 3 2007, 12:25 AM, said:

Anyway I'd still like to know what Human meant by this whole 'processed tree' thing.

I am not Human but I have been thinking deeply about what he/she has said about this point.

I would like to add my interpretation to this.

As a Christian, the Bible is our Holy Book. But it is the words on the page and the meaning it has in our hearts that is the important part. The pages themselves are indeed processed trees, but the meaning on its pages are priceless. That is why Christians can be seen to write notes in the columns, or close it and put it on the floor or put a coffee cup on it. To a Christian this is not disrespectful. But to read the word of God and then not do it is. In fact there are strong scriptures about this very point. It is the meaning of the words and acting on them that shows God the greatest respect.
James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

[Niche]

Hasaan, on Apr 3 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

Okay. That's what I have been satisfied to do, so I guess that's what I am.

Ta.

This will help.

The Judgement of the Shari'a regarding someone

The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who

The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who continued..

The judgment regarding someone who

Is the one who says such things

The judgement regarding words

[Human]

Hi Taliban Princess, Niche, and Hassan,

Niche - your ideas scare me. Taliban Princess - your ideas don't but you misunderstand me. Hasaan's Islam (from the tiny bit I know) takes way more strength, courage and wisdom to defend and to live than the sort of Islam that beats people up for wearing a *&*$ Jesus shirt as a way of defending Allah.

Taliban Princess - I've explained my position in detail over on the People of the Book thread in the Questions forum. As I see it Othman has confirmed my own point to some degree that there is a subtle but significant difference between the Quran (the message of Allah) and the Quran (the physical book). The former has always existed and the latter came into being in the 7th century. AbuAnna makes the same point I'm trying to make about the Christian Bible. I'll quote her here for effect:

Quote

As a Christian, the Bible is our Holy Book. But it is the words on the page and the meaning it has in our hearts that is the important part. The pages themselves are indeed processed trees, but the meaning on its pages are priceless. That is why Christians can be seen to write notes in the columns, or close it and put it on the floor or put a coffee cup on it. To a Christian this is not disrespectful. But to read the word of God and then not do it is. In fact there are strong scriptures about this very point. It is the meaning of the words and acting on them that shows God the greatest respect.
James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

I don't mean this condescendingly but I really think you've yet to understand the relationship between:

- The Symbolised and the symbol
- The Message and the message
- Allah (the ineffable) and 'Allah' the word
- Reality and words about reality
- The Objective and subjective perceptions of the objective
- The Universal and the particular, and so on...

So, when I asked Husaan 'What is the Quran' I'm not asking sarcastically as Niche seems to think - I'm asking seriously. If the Quran is the message of Allah then it existed before it was put into words in the 7th century. In a sense it existed before it was sopken by the Prophet Muhammad. It continues to exist where there is no physical copy of the Quran.

So my point is that there is a very fine line between respecting the particular artefact (a book - a processed tree) in order to cherish Allah's message and worshipping the book as if Allah is somehow limited to that object. Surely you can see that the psychology that does that to a copy of the Quran is really little different to the psychology that makes a polytheist or an idol worshipper mistake a particular tree or icon or statue for God. This is why I think that Muslims who react in such a way (including Niche from his post) really don't understand the message that they think they are trying to protect. What irony. What tragic consequences.

Niche, the reason why people wear *&%^$ Jesus T-Shirts is because they are ignorant. The reason why they are ignorant is because people like you represent Jesus to them. So let's see how beating up such a person would help them to understand the message of Jesus:

Love your enemies ... Turn the other Cheek ... Do not resist an evil man ... Father forgive for they know not what they do ... Peter, put away thy sword.

You think you are respecting Jesus Niche. But you are doing exactly the opposite of what he taught - who is disrespecting him the most - you or a guy wearing the T-Shirt? Your behaviours feed off each other. If you want to show your courage and your strength I challenge you next time to swallow your anger and challenge the wearer in a different way by showing him a different Jesus to the one obviously already knows. Hatred is cowardice. What Christ did is strength.

Cheers,

Human

[syd]

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 09:38 AM, said:

This will help.

The Judgement of the Shari'a regarding someone

The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who

The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who continued..

The judgment regarding someone who

Is the one who says such things

The judgement regarding words

Sometimes I feel (actually i know) I am making good headway into bettering my understanding of Islam and muslims thanks to the perspective provided by (certain) MV members. It is precisely the reason i joined MV. I really do learn a lot from some peoples posts that correct any misunderstandings (and i hate to admit it but negative stereotypes) of Islam that i think i might have developed from reading all the usual anti-muslim articles that some local rags spout.

However it only takes one post of someone talking about the ' necessity of killing ' another human being, on a thread about a teacher lynched by her pupils for a perceived desecration of the Q'uran, to dredge up the old stereotypes again.

Despite Niche's post i wont go along with the negative to suit a stereotype.
So Hassan, I will take your view on this issue as an Islamic perspective as it seems to make sense.
Niche I will take your bloodlust angle as extreme, it seems incredibly irrational.

[Niche]

lmao

I'm now going to call you Shaykh Human.

Far out. Since when do you think what you think matters in the interpretation of our religon?

It doesn't and if everyone wants to play ringa ringa rosy with you here, I don't!

With all due respect, I am not going to give you a flower power interpretation of Islam because you find it hard to digest a real version.

Nor am I going to blow you up for not being a Muslim.

I am not at one extreme of acceptance nor am I at the other of rejection.

But I sure as hell am not going to lie to you.

If the ideas scare you, I think you need to snap out of your la-la zone of thinking religon is all rose petals and group hugs.

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Niche - your ideas scare me. Taliban Princess - your ideas don't but you misunderstand me. Hasaan's Islam (from the tiny bit I know) takes way more strength, courage and wisdom to defend and to live than the sort of Islam that beats people up for wearing a *&*$ Jesus shirt as a way of defending Allah.

He didn't beat him up. He had to snap him out of his ignorance, out of his limited mindset, out of his freedom to express him self at the expense of offending others using an emotion that not many people can conquer. Fear!

He had to invoke in him an awakening through fear to show him how stupid he was because he was with the fairies thinking he can express himself the way he wants.

Rubbish!

Nothing wrong with some good old fashion scare tactics, but rest assured, he would of followed through had he resisted. I wont take that if Christians are willing to tolerate it. That is vile and disgusting and the reason why our society has degraded to an all time low. There is no one in the street or in public willing to pull scum bags up like that.

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So my point is that there is a very fine line between respecting the particular artefact (a book - a processed tree) in order to cherish Allah's message and worshipping the book as if Allah is somehow limited to that object. Surely you can see that the psychology that does that to a copy of the Quran is really little different to the psychology that makes a polytheist or an idol worshipper mistake a particular tree or icon or statue for God. This is why I think that Muslims who react in such a way (including Niche from his post) really don't understand the message that they think they are trying to protect. What irony. What tragic consequences.

Well you aren't afforded that right of over philosophising your arguement to the point that it is junkier than it originally was. We don't need you or anyone else to interpret our religon for us.

The fact is, sacred law prohibits mistreating of the Quran and it is a punishable offence. A Muslim falls into sin from placing it on the ground, stepping on it, sitting on it, disrespecting it, or thinking of it as lamely as you have put it. The sacred law (what matters to us most) is what counts, not your far fetched interpretation. You seem to think you have a right to over power that with your wierd interpretations.

I'm telling you that you don't and no amount of "practising" it's words having any bearing what so ever if one does not afford the Quran it's due right. We aren't even allowed to touch it ( save in an extreme emergency to protect it from any desecration or dishonour) if we do not have full ablution and are physically and spiritually ( in the sense of required cleanliness) pure.

At some point you should realise that your interpretations mean jack.... if that offends you, then you are opting to put your egotistical opinion before what our Religon commands of us.

The tradgedy is that some Muslims may think your words to sound noble and wise when in fact they are impure and have no basis at all in light of our sacred law.

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Niche, the reason why people wear *&%^$ Jesus T-Shirts is because they are ignorant. The reason why they are ignorant is because people like you represent Jesus to them. So let's see how beating up such a person would help them to understand the message of Jesus:

Oh yeh, that's right. This guy must of bumped into a hillsong church group with all their chirpiness and outgoingness and decided what a bunch of misrepresentative fools! I'll show them.... I'm going to buy a @#$% Jesus T-shirt.

Seriously, how you can even pass that off as a reason is beyond me.

The reason why people wear t-shirts like that is that they think they matter. They think that they personally are representing a rebellion so it is their billboard. They try to advertise to the world their insecure "bravery" and hope it builds thier confidence. They hope it offends and will maintain a mean "don't mess with me look" until people are mortified to approach them. Ofcourse, chains from your ear to nose and spikes on your arms and jacket and big steel cap boots and the black outfit with marylin manson makeup will scare us even more (quivers in his pants).

In their own little world, they are confident, that is until they are put on the spot and the very thing they were trying to insure ends up biting them in the bum and they realise they are little cowards!

They don't need accomodation, they need a belting and a half. It didn't even get to that as this guy crapped himself. So be it, because a law enforcing police officer isn't going to stop him so we might as well do it.

Quote

You think you are respecting Jesus Niche. But you are doing exactly the opposite of what he taught - who is disrespecting him the most - you or a guy wearing the T-Shirt? Your behaviours feed off each other. If you want to show your courage and your strength I challenge you next time to swallow your anger and challenge the wearer in a different way by showing him a different Jesus to the one obviously already knows. Hatred is cowardice. What Christ did is strength.

As much as I love and respect Jesus, my message and example is through MUhammad and his followers.

Moses was harsh to the people because they needed it. Jesus was soft and gentle to the people he came to because they needed it. Muhammad was the balance of everything to All humanity because his message was global not limited to a people.

He is my example in the most balanced affairs. He did not turn his cheek when oppressed or when others were oppressed and the Word of God was insulted. He fought when he had to and he forgave when he had to.

That is the problem with Christianity and Judaism the former too soft and the later too harsh. Alhamdullillah for Islam, the perfect balance!

[Niche]

syd, like Human, take it how you like. Hasaan is not giving you the complete picture, it's as simple as that.

[syd]

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 10:43 AM, said:

Syd, like Human, take it how you like. Hasaan is not giving you the complete picture, it's as simple as that.

You have a crack at human's ego, but who's the one with the ego then - telling others that their view on Islam is inferior to your own? What does the Q'uran say about muslims judging the faith of their fellow muslims - thats not a rhetorical question either, i'd really like to know.

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 10:43 AM, said:

That is vile and disgusting and the reason why our society has degraded to an all time low. There is no one in the street or in public willing to pull scum bags up like that.

As much as i would think this person is a goose for wearing a t-shirt aimed to offend, i think most people would prefer a society where you have to endure the odd idiot, than one where everyone walks about arbitrarily dishing out violence on their fellow citizens where they see fit.

The pen is mightier than the sword - if you or your cousin had any form of wit you could have given him a verbal dressing down that would have made him look like a fool, instead you've gone and threatened him with violence and if anything served his purpose in trying to get a reaction. Made him look pathetic? Sure. Made yourself look pathetic as well - definitely. I doubt you will get much thanks from anyone for nominating yourself judge, jury and executioner.

[AbuAnna]

Niche you have made a mockery of Akilah's comments quoted below.

Akilah, on Apr 2 2007, 09:51 PM, said:

AbuAnna it has been pointed out by both myself and others that what happened to this teacher is not Islamic and it has nothing to do with Sharia' law.  Your continued allusions to the fact that Islam is responsible for the twisted actions of a few are beginning to wear thin, and frankly make you appear to be someone with an axe to grind.

Is it me ginding the axe?

This post has been edited by AbuAnna: 03 April 2007 - 11:04 AM

[Taliban Princess]

AbuAnna, on Apr 3 2007, 11:23 AM, said:

I am not Human but I have been thinking deeply about what he/she has said about this point.

I would like to add my interpretation to this.

As a Christian, the Bible is our Holy Book. But it is the words on the page and the meaning it has in our hearts that is the important part. The pages themselves are indeed processed trees, but the meaning on its pages are priceless. That is why Christians can be seen to write notes in the columns, or close it and put it on the floor or put a coffee cup on it. To a Christian this is not disrespectful. But to read the word of God and then not do it is. In fact there are strong scriptures about this very point. It is the meaning of the words and acting on them that shows God the greatest respect.

That's all well and nice AbuAnna, but all of what you say simply illustrates how cavalier your ways of treating your sacred scripture are in comparison to ours.

A practicing Muslim would *never* place a cup on the Qur'an, nor put in on the floor or scribble notes into it. All this would be deemed as dishonouring the words of God.

[Niche]

syd, on Apr 3 2007, 11:04 AM, said:

You have a crack at human's ego, but who's the one with the ego then - telling others that their view on Islam is inferior to your own? What does the Q'uran say about muslims judging the faith of their fellow muslims - thats not a rhetorical question either, i'd really like to know.

nice try.... your opinion still doesn't matter.

I have provided unequivocal evidence for what I wrote, which you may care to read a little more carefully in case you misunderstand.

Quote

As much as i would think this person is a goose for wearing a t-shirt aimed to offend, i think most people would prefer a society where you have to endure the odd idiot, than one where everyone walks about arbitrarily dishing out violence on their fellow citizens where they see fit.

nice play on words, I said no such thing.

Quote

The pen is mightier than the sword - if you or your cousin had any form of wit you could have given him a verbal dressing down that would have made him look like a fool, instead you've gone and threatened him with violence and if anything served his purpose in trying to get a reaction. Made him look pathetic? Sure. Made yourself look pathetic as well - definitely. I doubt you will get much thanks from anyone for nominating yourself judge, jury and executioner.

No, the pen and the sword in accord.

[Human]

Hi Niche,

Thanks for your post.

Quote

Far out. Since when do you think what you think matters in the interpretation of our religon?

I honestly haven't pondered much whether what I think matters to anyone because it's well beyond my control. I'm simply articulating a different perspective for you to consider.

This may sound a little confusing coming from me but I actually think you are more honest and less compromising in your interpretation of Islam than most Muslims I've met. You take a particular hermeneutic and apply it to Islam no matter how politically correct or incorrect the results may be. Perhaps this takes a certain amount of courage, but I can't help but wonder if the need for such courage is driven by a poor hermeutic or way of understanding a text. You probably won't like being called a 'fundamentalist' but I think you are in a technical sense. You seem to have the Muslim equivalent of "God said it, I believe it, that settles it". It sounds simple and black and white and that's the attraction of your way of understanding your religion. But I'm suggesting that there's a very different way of looking and I'm not sure you've considered it enough to even deliberately reject it.

Anyway, I won't tell you why I think the fundamentalist hermeneutic is distorted but I'll ask a question to initiate some discussion.

Do you ever wonder why there's 'literalist' interpretations and *'liberal' interpretations in almost every culture of belief - religious and non-religious?

There's something going here that transcends any particular culture - Islam or other otherwise. What do you think is driving these different interpretations that permeate many cultures? Is it really as easily explained as saying literalists are serious and courageous and liberalists are namby-pamby and weak-willed? I'm just interested in your own account for, or explanation of why there is this interpretive diversity in Islam as well as beyond it?

Finally, given your physically aggressive defence of Jesus do you simply contextualise his teachings and constrict them to his own time and space? Should we be adding a 'just for now' to his teachings:

Love your enemies ... just for now
Blessed are the peacemakers ... just for now
Peter put down your sword ... just for now

How do you know when to be aggessive 'like Judaism' or passive 'like Christ'. What do you think has happened in the angry young man's life to make him wear a shirt like that?

Cheers,

Human

* I realise this word probably carries connotations I don't intend in my usage.

[syd]

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

nice try.... your opinion still doesn't matter.

nice play on words, I said no such thing.

So now my opinion also doesn't matter - and why so?

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

I have provided unequivocal evidence for what I wrote, which you may care to read a little more carefully in case you misunderstand.

Not being a muslim I am hardly in the position to argue against your 'unequivocal evidence' ( or someones webpage they wrote over in the UK ), however what i can argue is that compared to the muslims i know you would be right on the fringes in terms of interpretation of faith. I'll leave your 'necessity to kill' comments to perhaps be answered by another muslim who can maybe shed light on it for me.

And niche - you still haven't answered my question - what does the Q'uran say about muslims judging the faith of their fellow muslims? Or is that too sticky a question for you.....

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

nice play on words, I said no such thing.

Well actually you did - you advocated your cousins actions of deciding to threaten to 'belt the crap' out of a person, you even went so far as reassure us that 'he would have followed through with it had he resisted' and then celebrated his use of instilling fear to get his own way. So yes you did do such a thing - and i reiterate, it would be a worse society if everyone had your cousins attitude of walking the streets threatening to 'belt the crap' out of people they had a problem with, trying to instill fear because as you celebrated - its an 'emotion that not many people can conquer. Fear!'

here's a refresher:

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

My cousin ( as non practising as he was) was about to belt the crap out of a guy that wore a shirt that said @#$! Jesus. He literally made this supposed tough looking punk quiver in his pants as he was about to maul him and forced him to take his shirt off in the middle of the street. Bad adab? yeh, maybe, but not worse than the idiot wearing that shirt thinking he has a right to free expression. He doesn't and he learnt the hard way! ......He didn't beat him up. He had to snap him out of his ignorance, out of his limited mindset, out of his freedom to express him self at the expense of offending others using an emotion that not many people can conquer. Fear!

So I'll ask you again - would you prefer a society where everyone wandered about using fear and threats of violence to get their way, or would you have one which is more civil yet has the odd person with an offensive t-shirt on.

I've never seen that shirt - but I probably would find it offensive for a number of reasons. I would almost look forward to seeing some emo type spotty faced loser wearing a shirt like that for rebellious reasons, purely because i would relish the chance to verbally tear shreds off him in public.

[AbuAnna]

Taliban Princess, on Apr 3 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

That's all well and nice AbuAnna, but all of what you say simply illustrates how cavalier your ways of treating your sacred scripture are in comparison to ours.

A practicing Muslim would *never* place a cup on the Qur'an, nor put in on the floor or scribble notes into it.  All this would be deemed as dishonouring the words of God.

I'm glad you can see that is "all well and nice".

To me the best loved Bible is a well worn, coloured in, scribbled in Bible; the sort that has notes and papers stuffed inside the cover so you have to be careful how it is picked up or all the pieces fall out.

You have a very honourable way of treating your Quran. But to murder in its name...?

I guess it is all in the beliefs that the Word holds.

[Johan]

I'd have like to have seen those views aired on A Difference of Opinion the other night on the ABC.

[Taliban Princess]

AbuAnna, on Apr 3 2007, 04:48 PM, said:

You have a very honourable way of treating your Quran. But to murder in its name...?

And where did I mention anything about murdering in its name?

[Umar_bin_al-Khattab]

This Thread is Useless , and Pointless should be closed

salam

[Taliban Princess]

AbuAnna, on Apr 3 2007, 04:48 PM, said:

To me the best loved Bible is a well worn, coloured in, scribbled in Bible; the sort that has notes and papers stuffed inside the cover so you have to be careful how it is picked up or all the pieces fall out. 

Yeah kinda like the way I treat The Green Guide in Thursday's Age

[Taliban Princess]

Johan, on Apr 3 2007, 05:29 PM, said:

I'd have like to have seen those views aired on A Difference of Opinion the other night on the ABC.

That would've entailed getting a word in when Tanveer presented his monologue.

Sorry, I mean when Tanveer 'spoke'...

[Niche]

oooo aren't we excited!

I'll be replying to syd and human tonight inshallah!

Funny how you still are arrogant enough to think your interpretations or understanding even remotely comes close to competing with that of Muslims.

For the record, it is laughable for you to call me or even infer that I am an extremist, literal or as you put it "fundamental" especially when I am and have been most vocal in speaking out against them.

Nevertheless, you'll get a reply.

[TAS``]

syd, on Apr 3 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

So I'll ask you again - would you prefer a society where everyone wandered about using fear and threats of violence to get their way, or would you have one which is more civil yet has the odd person with an offensive t-shirt on. 

Tell me Syd,

1) Whats the "civil" way of dealing with a deliberate offence to other individuals of the same civil society?

2) Why are people who deny the holocaust (Im not contending the topic whether it happened or not) for any reason (deliberately to cause offence or because they honestly believe its a load of propaganda or it didnt happen to the extent it is propagated) jailed in the "civil" world and imprisoned?

3) What does your sense of "civility" say to accepting mockery of Muhammad and Jesus alaihis salam and other prophets as well, and YET, forces people to "accept" faggots. Id like to see some cartoons insulting the gay rights movement.

4) Why do "civil" societies ban freedom of religious expression like the hijab?

5) Does civility vary from society to society?

6) Who defines what is civil? As an example, in Australia, a civil country, 16 is the age of consent. In Italy, another civil society, its 14. So what is civil in Australia is not civil in Italy and vice versa. Is it civil to accept any offence to ones person or worse yet, belief system and yet not respond?

7) America, the icon of the civilised world, still has death penalty enacted. Most of Europe and Australia dont. So whose civilised, help me understand.

8) Does civility change with time? What used to be uncivilised in any society years ago seems to be the norm of "civility" in current times.

9) Just who is this person who sits down and defines civility for the rest of us, and why should we accept it? Try passing a law banning guns in the civilised states of Texas or Oklahoma in the USA.

10) How does a "civilised" person deal with an "uncivilised" one that causes hurt and offence and is insistent on his/her arrogant behaviour and the law actually protects this offenders right to offend.

11) Is it civil to force your sense of civility on to others, and how is that done? Like spread supposed peace and democracy by killings and wars?

This post has been edited by TAS``: 03 April 2007 - 05:14 PM

[syd]

Niche, on Apr 3 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

oooo aren't we excited!

I'll be replying to syd and human tonight inshallah!

Funny how you still are arrogant enough to think your interpretations or understanding even remotely comes close to competing with that of Muslims.

For the record, it is laughable for you to call me or even infer that I am an extremist, literal or as you put it "fundamental" especially when I am and have been most vocal in speaking out against them.

Nevertheless, you'll get a reply.

A bit of banter/cut 'n thrust keeps the forum lively !

Look forward to reading your response tomorrow Niche.

[AbuAnna]

Taliban Princess, on Apr 3 2007, 03:47 PM, said:

And where did I mention anything about murdering in its name?

Niche gave a series of links to read. Did you not read them?
Did you not read the article at the beginning?
Haven't you been following this thread?

[Hasaan Fatal]

Umar_bin_al-Khattab, on Apr 3 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

This Thread is Useless , and Pointless should be closed

salam

Well said.

Except for the excessive use of capital letters.

I repeat, that it is not our job to kill people who insult Islam, Allah, the Prophet the Qur'an, especially when we Muslims have incited such hatred through our un-Islamic behaviour and recklessness.

Every time you point your finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

So saith the coward.

[Johan]

Hasaan, on Apr 3 2007, 07:31 PM, said:

Well said.

Except for the excessive use of capital letters.

I repeat, that it is not our job to kill people who insult Islam, Allah, the Prophet the Qur'an, especially when we Muslims have incited such hatred through our un-Islamic behaviour and recklessness.

Every time you point your finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

So saith the coward.

[Lantern]

Quote

This Thread is Useless , and Pointless should be closed

salam

I agree too. I have to say the thread has taken off on a tangent with Niche posting those links to Ash-Shifa. I know they werent posted in reference to the killing of the teacher but more specifically in response to one of Hasan's posts, but they are getting a little intertwined. I cant help but feel that the connection will be made (particularly by the Non-Muslims) that the killing of the teacher (who for all we know may be completely innocent) is being justified.

Bro, I've read Ash-Shifa and have no qualms accepting the rulings and I completely see where your coming from, I just think the issues are getting a little muddled up here and getting a little confusing...Maybe you can clear them up, in your anticipated post tonight.

[Johan]

I know that your opinions are your opinions and are obviously linked to Islam (or an interpretation of Islam) and that nothing anyone else says is going to change them.

BUT

With opinions like some of those expresed in this thread, don't ever wonder why living in a liberal non Islamic country might be difficult and why a large percentage of the population will never completely accept you because of those opinions and views. Those views are just totally alien to anything else most people have had any exposure to and I think if those views were made known to the non Muslim population, life for Muslims in Australia would become a whole lot harder.

[Scalpel]

How well were the children practicing Islam? Taking the life of a person seems so quick and easy to do compared to living to a life of obedience and devotion.

Was the life taken in order to serve as an example for others or was it perhaps a way to make oneself feel devout through the oppression of another?