[Astral]

Assalamu'alaykum,


I'm a little confused with this issue of being permitted to have intercourse with one's slaves.

I have read a bit on it, and it seems that only men can have sex with their female slaves (right hands possess) - and not women with their male slaves.

I have also read on the status of slaves in Islam. The Quran says that you should feed and clothe your slaves the way you feed and clothe yourself.

In a sense, Islam transformed slaves into workers with rights.

A modern day housemaid who lives on your property is, I think, the same as the slave back 'in the old days'.

So taking the examples of the sahaba, wouldn't that make a man permitted to have sex with his housemaid ? Wouldn't the housemaid be a mistress?


I don't understand the DIFFERENCE between a man having sex with a "slave" woman and a man having sex with a woman of his own status - "free".

Is he permitted to have sex with her because he presumably 'pays her' (ie worker) so that payment is dowry? How is that different to porstitution?

How do we differentiate prostitution, slavery, sidedish affairs, and the likes... ? They all seem to be the same except with different names.


can somebody please explain this concept?

[Astral]

Alright well I have read a response to a question regarding having sex with a maid on 'understand-islam.org'

Here is their response.

Answer:

To fully appreciate the answer to your query you must realize that a "maid/servant" is not the same as "slave" nor do they share the same concepts in their very essence. Another thing to keep in mind is that the institution of slavery was progressively abolished by Islam but the occupation of being a maid/servant is fully legal and permissible. A maid or servant is typically employed for some sort of work for some hours of the day for a fee. On the other hand, a slave was a possession - as any commodity - of the slave-owner. A maid/servant freely chooses this line of work while a slave did not have any freedom. With that being clearer it should also be remembered that the institution of slavery in the Arabian Peninsula consisted of accepted practices that we may find vile today. One of these "norms" was that the enslavement of a captured woman would potentially involve sexual intercourse. Considering that this was the culture of Arabs, in particular, and the world, in general, in the 7th century one cannot justify any such act especially since Islam has forbidden illicit sex. The simple answer to whether you may have sexual intercourse with a maid, whether she is willing or unwilling, is a clear "no." The wages you give her are for the job she is hired not for prostitution.

Consider the above and the following links and it should suffice that all your stated inquiries regarding sexual intercourse is not allowable under any circumstances in Islam.


#############

I like this response.
But one thing that makes me wonder... why would Muslims capture women in times of war? Does not Islam forbid harming women, children and the elderly?
Why were women used as 'spoils of war'???

[Astral]

Another piece I have read...

Title:
Did Islam Pave the way for the Abolition of Slavery?

Question:

You write, in a response to a question regarding the practice of keeping jawaari/kanizes/concubines/etc.

"Islam was never in favor of the institution of slavery. It never promoted it. The institution of slavery, by the grace of God, no longer exists in the world."

I disagree with this most strongly, and this is a popular delusion. Inshallah I will give a number of examples, which when seen in the singular may strike you as inconsequential but when looked at as a gestalt, a whole, a pattern emerges.

Firstly, slavery exists in Africa and is practiced by many Christians, Pagans, as well as Muslims in countries like Nigeria and Cameroon. Mauritania and Sudan still retain their old slavery systems, though in a covert fashion. As to the rest of the world, human bondage is still legal, believe it or not, in the United States of America, what is outlawed is PRIVATE OWNERSHIP if bonded individuals, the state still can and does own bonded humans.

They are called prisoners. Until quite recently forced labor was widely practiced with bonded prisoners, the so called chain gangs, today in the US this practice is restricted to a couple of States only, like Alabama and I think Mississippi still uses chain gangs. In the rest of the US prison reforms have made this forced labor unpopular though one notes with GREAT INTEREST the RAPID privatization of the Prison industry and the rapidly growing LACK of oversight over privately owned prisons in the USA, it would be fair to speculate that given 4 or 5 years forced labor might be re-introduced into now privatized prisons. As to bondage outside of prison, an outlaw once arrested can actually give up his freedom to a Bonds man, a so-called "bounty hunter" in exchange for Bail. Once this is done the Bounty Hunter, in effect, owns the prisoner. In de facto the prisoner is his property de jure the prisoner is not quite his property but the bondsman does have almost complete control over the prisoner and has the ability to re arrest him, break down his doors, legally break into the Bonded individual's property, and so on, until the individual's bond is over.

But "ah, wait, this isn't slavery, these are prisoners !" My point, un-examined assumptions regarding the role of prisons in our society. People see not things as they are, rather they see them as they have been trained.

Indeed the Western Prison System is not only obscenely expensive but it is an inhumane abomination, far more cruel than chopping off hands, walk amongst prisoners in America, my father is a Doctor and he works for the State in a prison. Trust me the system is thoroughly evil.

This is the accepted way of things and no one questions it, however strictly speaking this is bondage, slavery is private or state bondage.

As for de facto slavery there is a CONSIDERABLE body of critique, sadly mostly from the left, on many aspects of modern neo-liberal capitalism as practiced by Multinational Corporations, practices that in the third world result in conditions similar to or almost identical, in a few abused cases, to slavery. You and understanding Islam's staff seem like intellectuals, I am surprised that you have never encountered such literature.

Illegal Sexual slavery is a Multi Billion Dollar industry, especially in Israel, Thailand, Russia, and many parts of Eastern Europe. In many places it brings in so much cash that authorities wink upon it.

Up until the 1980's according to some reports that I've read the secular kemalist govt. ran one or two prisons for women debtors. Supposedly the prison officials allowed, or indeed forced, the women prisoners to engage in prostitution in order to pay off their debts. I've not been able to follow up on these reports, so I can not assertion the veracity of them.

Indeed I've heard that the Taliban allow the taking of captive women as Jaaria from sectarian (Ismaili) populations in Afghanistan.

Slavery is a global phenomena, it has not changed excepting in the FORM and in some cases the specific legalities of it, but it exists, has always existed, and indeed in spite of 2 centuries of so called progressive social change still exists.

Therefore it is incorrect to state that Islam in its wisdom was simply waiting for slavery to naturally end, the only reasons why legalized slavery mostly ended 1300 years after the blessed Nebi (saw) is due to the industrialization of Britain and the Northern United States, and the politics associated with these phenomena.

it is only 3 or so generations (I'm measuring in 40 year blocks) since slavery was legally stamped out by Britannia and the United States, and the Resonance of this throughout the world (then dominated by the former's empire). 80, 90, or 100 or so years is a sliver in human history and one has no idea as to what the future holds 5, 20, or 50 years from now.

What we can say is that Islam recognizes slavery as a constant in human society (excepting this odd 100 or so year block) and aimed to make the practice as humane and beneficial to society as possible. Indeed I see few social evils in slavery as it was practiced throughout the Islamic world, excepting the few though ugly and tragic abuses (like Zanzibar, the use of the Zanj in the Abbassid days, the massive abuse of the allowance of concubinage) and I would even approve it today. It took me a decade to de-program my Liberal Private School Education regarding such matters and to train my eyes to inshallah, cut through the propaganda.

Slavery is a constant, it is ugly, like poverty, and sometimes a cause of misery, like poverty, but often slavery fulfills a valuable social function.

The entire, or at least most, of the Ottoman government, and military ELITE were slaves during many periods of Ottoman history.

Jaria girls or "kanizes" in many places, at many times in Islamic history, contributed beautifully to the culture and were many times dynamic players with influence, power, and rights.

I had to symbolically smack my head against a proverbial brick wall for the better part of a decade to de-program myself regarding my formerly liberal and "progressive" understanding of such matters. Indeed I've found that high school teachers are as apt, if not more so, to brainwash one, with greater degrees of subtlety, as any Molvi...



#####################


Answer:

I do not differ with you on the point that all the examples that you have mentioned are indeed extremely grave contemporary situations, which epitomize the exploitation of the weak at the hands of the strong. Nevertheless, 'slavery' is not merely any exploitation of a class at the hands of another. It was actually an institute with its own unique characteristics. This institute was an integral part of the world society, generally, till a few decades back. This institute was also an integral part of the Arab society, at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an in its directives has, generally, tried to improve the condition of the slaves, as well as to inculcate the spirit of freeing them and has ultimately, in its final directives regarding slaves, has given the slaves the irrevocable and the unchallengeable right to buy their own freedom. It is primarily these directives of the Qur'an, which point to the fact that Islam was never in favor of the institute of slavery and that it tried to relieve the human society of this vice. Islam had to cope with the deep-rooted social phenomenon and the directives of the Qur'an evidence the fact that Islam dealt with it in a manner that was truly wise and effective.

The examples that you have cited are, generally, not completely similar to what we call 'slavery'. I do agree that these examples may sometimes entail shades of the great vice of slavery, yet they are not absolutely the same. A slave, as we are familiar with the 'term' was a part of the legally recognized, movable and transferable property of the slave owner. Slave trading; acquisition and disposal, under this definition, were absolutely acceptable activities and norms. There were, generally, no legally recognized rights of the slaves over their masters. The masters, on the other hand, had complete legal control over their slaves. This was the reason that, generally, there was no requirement of a written law to govern the slave-master relationship as such a law would, by its very existence, have given rights to slaves. The owner, by definition, could utilize his/her slave as he would his property and other commodities in his possession. The acquisition of slaves was primarily through wars and through open market purchases. It was strictly against the social norms to make slaves of one's own nation, creed and tribe. All these activities regarding acquiring and maintaining slaves as well as utilizing them for the master's pleasures were legally and socially recognized and protected.

Compare the above explanation of what slavery was with the cited examples of exploitation of one human being at the hands of another, and you shall see that even though, Islam would approve neither, yet the two are not similar in nature.

You write:

Firstly, slavery exists in Africa and is practiced by many Christians, Pagans, as well as Muslims in countries like Nigeria and Cameroon. Mauritania and Sudan still retain their old slavery systems, though in a covert fashion.

The mere fact that such 'slavery' system is retained in a 'covert fashion' evidences the fact that the general attitude and aptitude regarding slavery has tremendously altered over time. This is precisely what I had implied in my referred statement.

You write:

Quote

Indeed the Western Prison System is not only obscenely expensive but it is an inhumane abomination, far more cruel than chopping off hands, walk amongst prisoners in America, my father is a Doctor and he works for the State in a prison.  Trust me the system is thoroughly evil.

I would not question the validity of your statement, as I am not directly exposed to the system, yet I would only like to mention that not all 'thoroughly evil' systems should be termed as 'slavery'. Slavery is a distinct institute with generally recognizable features. Nevertheless, I would not differ with the idea that all such human activities, which, directly or indirectly, result in the exploitation of other human beings should be taken as an abominable mark on the conscience of the whole human race.

You write:

Quote

Therefore it is incorrect to state that Islam in its wisdom was simply waiting for slavery to naturally end, the only reasons why legalized slavery mostly ended 1300 years after the blessed Nabi (saw) is due to the industrialization of Britain and the Northern United States, and the politics associated with these phenomena.

I agree with you. I would, however, like to add that the reason why Islam did not give any macro-level directives for the eradication of slavery was precisely the socio-cultural, economic and technological development state of the human collectivity, in general. It was only at a very later stage that mankind reached a stage where the collectivity could plan and implement programs for the macro-level eradication of the vice. Till such time, no collective administrative action could have been taken against the vice, individuals could only prompted against it, and this, in my opinion, is precisely what Islam did.

You write:

Quote

What we can say is that Islam recognizes slavery as a constant in human society (excepting this odd 100 or so year block) and aimed to make the practice as humane and beneficial to society as possible.

This, in fact, is the point of disagreement between us. Had Islam only been interested in making the practice more humane and had it accepted 'slavery' as a 'constant' of the human society, its directives would have been restricted to the improvement of the living conditions of the slaves. We know, however, that such is not the case. Islam has prompted individuals to free slaves and get rewards in the hereafter in return for such a humane act. Such and other related directives of Islam are not in consonance with the theory that Islam accepts slavery as a constant of the human society.

I would, therefore, suggest that if you desire to make any additions to this discussion, you should first of all answer the following questions, to support your theory that Islam accepts 'slaves' as a constant of the human society:

Why did Islam promote freeing slaves?

Why did Islam give the law relating to Mukaatabah (i.e. contract), whereby a slave-master was bound to enter into a contract with every such slave who was desirous of buying his freedom by giving a stipulated amount of money to his master within a stipulated period of time[1] (Al-Noor 24: 33)?

Why did Islam prescribe 'freeing of slaves' as a permanent head of expense of the Zaka'h fund collected from the Muslims (Al-Taubah 9: 60)

Why did Islam disallow the provision of converting prisoners of wars into slaves, which was an accepted international norm of the traditional societies (Muhammad 47: 4)

I hope this helps.

2nd July 2000

[afroz]

Without answering tha ctual thrust of this thread, I wanted to simplysay that that the reason women are taken into "custody" is not to harm them or through harming them.

One of the first people who fall victims of war are in fact women and children. Particular to women in relation to this thread, the Islamic position is in fact to give them protection and security. They are not "spoils of war".

Was Salaam
Afroz

[YC]

Well, if I may, I would debate that, Sidi.

Given that one of the hadith refering to `azl explains that the sahabi desired to practice this so that the captive women could be sold for a greater price. (Although this is not expressly stated in all versions, it is infered as a possible reason, especially when one takes into account the concluding advice from the prophet(pbuh))

This sounds like a 'spoil' to me.

Ill get the hadith in the next 15 mins insha'Allah.

This post has been edited by YC: 24 July 2005 - 01:33 AM

[YC]

From Abu Said Al-Khudri(may Allaah be pleased with him) who said:

We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."




In Imam Bukhari's Sahih Collection.




From Ibn Muhayreez who said:

I saw Abu Sa’eed (may Allaah be pleased with him) and I asked him. He said: We went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) on the campaign of Banu al-Mustaliq, and we captured some prisoners from among the Arabs. We desired women and the period of abstention was hard for us, and we wanted to engage in ‘azl (coitus interruptus). We asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for there is no soul which Allaah has decreed should exist until the Day of Resurrection but it will come into existence.”
According to another report, They captured some female prisoners and wanted to be intimate with them without them becoming pregnant. They asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about ‘azl and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for Allaah has decreed who should be created until the Day of Resurrection.”





Also in Imam Bukhari's Sahih Collection.





And Imam Muslim's version states:

We captured some women of the Arabs and we had been abstinent for a long time; and we wanted to be able to sell them, but we wanted to engage in intimacy with coitus interruptus. We said, “Shall we do that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is among us without asking him about it?” So we asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for Allaah has not decreed that any soul should be created until the Day of Resurrection but it will come into existence.”


Allahu Alem.

Just my point of view. Hope you can show me where I am wrong, Sidi.

This post has been edited by YC: 24 July 2005 - 01:33 AM

[child-of-islam]

salam alykom...i just wanna clarify the idea of slavery, cause it's not as many people would imagine it or picture it like in the old dark times...i bet the word slavery pops this image i ur head as a man wipping his slave who is so oppressed and suffering and he is carrying his master or smthn!!

In Islam Slavery wasn't like any of that, and i will show that as this Hadith will explain it all

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"


Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"


This Hadiths show how slaves are treated In Islam, besides Islam came to end slavery which was on peak at that time and he even give the slave the right to free himself

"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you" 24:33 Quran

as you can see not only we must free them if there was any good in them but as well help them by giving them money so they can stand up with and to help them to start their new life .

It was stated that many companions when they tried to free their slaves, the slaves refused to be freed for the noble treatment they got. subhan allah

And yea the Muslim men were giving the right to have sex with them but they are NOT ALLOWED TO FORCE THE CAPTIVES WOMEN TO DO SO

But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life.24:33 Quran

so thats how Islam looked at captives of wars but in the other hand Slavery in christianity and jeduism is completely diffrent lets see how it is for them in the bible :

"And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her. (Exodus 21:7-8)"

13And when the lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee " Deuteronomy 20:13-14


Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly" Leviticus 25:44-46


17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.31:17-18 (New International Version)



As far as i know In Islam Allah put 15 ways to free slaves who are out brothers and sisters as it stated in Quran and thats how they are treated, and as u can see the slavery ended long time ago for allah had his wisdom by giving the ways to end it that way subhan allah


Allah knows!

This post has been edited by child-of-islam: 24 July 2005 - 11:07 AM

[Astral]

ok I have finally found a verse that I read awhile back that *I think* might relate to this issue. I don't know the tafsir on it, but on the face of it, it seems that the Quran forbids sex with slaves?

SHAKIR: They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say: The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to hunt-- you teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.

Al Ma'idah
5:05
YUSUFALI: This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time, - when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

PICKTHAL: This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.

SHAKIR: This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.


### Point 1: Not related to slavery - but the point about Women of the Scripture BEFORE YOUR TIME is interesting

### Point 2: Would "secret concubines" constitute slave girls? Or were slave girls pretty 'public'?

For a layman like myself, one could easily think that Islam permits 4 wives plus slave girls - what historical factors or Quranic verses are there to prove that this is not the case... or is?




Anyhow, another verse that I would like to ask about, also in suratul Ma'idah but not related to slavery:

5:04
YUSUFALI: They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food). Say: lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah: eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it: and fear Allah; for Allah is swift in taking account.

If a trained animal catches another animal for you to eat, in most cases your pet will bring that animal dead to you. The blood would not run free. Can someone please explain this verse too?

Danx.

[YC]

Quote

But force not your maids to prostitution  when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life .24:33 Quran

Quote

And yea the Muslim men were giving the right to have sex with them but they are NOT ALLOWED TO FORCE THE CAPTIVES WOMEN TO DO SO

How does that ayat demonstrate that? The ayat is talking about prostitution for money.

Not being a concubine.

Surely you can read it? Maybe the Arabic will shed more light?

And what has Exoditian and Deuteronomical law got to do with this discussion?



Another point of trivia: Its Judaism. Not Jeduism.

[ThUnDa4rOmDoWnUnDa]

Can a man force his wife to have sex with him?

[YC]

Well, according to one particular lecture I went to about rights and responsibilities in marriage, yes.

The Reliance of the Traveller states that there is a maximum time period which a wife can refuse intercourse, its something like 3 days. (Obviously this would be Shafi`i fiqh).

Ill see if I can find the text online and post it up.

[YC]

Couldnt find the guide, but this is a relevant hadith:

From Abu Hurayrah who said:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till the morning.”

Its not really relevant to the topic, Thunda, but I think I see where you are going.

Sorry....forgot:

Imam Bukhari's Sahih Collection.

This post has been edited by YC: 24 July 2005 - 04:47 PM

[Astral]

If a husband goes to bed angry because he couldn't get some then he's not worth being a husband. Surely there must be valid reasons as to why the woman did not return his call... unless she's been a pain in the bum, then there is no need to get angry over it.

[Faithful2Allah]

Such a strange topic..

I wonder if its practiced these days How many ppl have slaves though these days.

[Barnabas]

The following taken from sunnipath:

Q. What are the rights of woman after marriage? If the husband calls the wife to bed, can she say no? does the husband need the wife's consent to have Intercourse? If there is no consent, and the wife doesn't want to, and he forces himself over her, isn't that rape?"




A. In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“When a man calls his wife for sexual intimacy and she refuses him, thus he spends the night in anger, then the angels curse her until morning.” (Sahih al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim, See: Riyad al-Salihin, No. 281)

Talq ibn Ali (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“When a man calls his wife for sexual intimacy, then she should come, even if she is (busy) in the cooking area.” (Sunan al-Tirmizi & Sunan al-Nasa’i)

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“By the one in whose hands is my life, there is not a man who calls his wife for sexual intimacy and she refuses him except that Allah becomes angry with her until her husband is pleased with her.” (Sahih Muslim, No. 1436)

The above and other narrations of the beloved of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) clearly signify the importance of the wife obeying her husband in his request for sexual intimacy. It will be a grave sin, in normal circumstances, for the wife to refuse her husband, and even more, if this leads the husband into the unlawful.

Imam al-Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary on the Hadith of Abu Huraira stated above:

“This Hadith indicates that it is unlawful (haram) for the wife to refuse her husband for sexual intimacy without a valid reason. Menstruation will not be considered a valid reason, for the husband has a right to enjoy her from above the garment (on top of cloths).” (Sharh Sahih Muslim, P. 1084)

However, this does not in any way mean that the husband may force himself over her for sexual gratification. The Hadith mentions that,

“the husband spends the night in anger or being displeased,”

which clearly shows that he must restrain himself from forcing himself over her. Had this not been the case, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) would have advised the husband to gain his right in a forceful manner.

Similarly, it should be remembered here that, the wife must obey her husband in his request for sexual intimacy unless she has a valid reason. She must obey him as long as she does not have to forego her own rights. As such, if the wife is ill, fears physical harm or she is emotionally drained, etc; she will not be obliged to comply with her husband’s request for sexual intimacy. Rather, the husband would be required to show her consideration.

Allah Most High says:

“On no soul does Allah place a burden greater than it can bear” (al-Baqarah, 286)

Many times it is observed that the husband demands from his wife to fulfil his sexual needs no matter what state she is in, and uses the above quoted Hadiths to impose himself over her.

If the wife is not in a state to engage in sexual activities and has a genuine and valid reason, and the husband forces her, then he will be sinful. Muslim husbands should realize that their wives are also humans and not some type of machines that can be switched on whenever they desire!

Finally, these matters should be resolved with mutual understanding, regard for one another, love, gentleness and putting one’s spouse before one’s self.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) has reported to have said:

“None of you can be a true believer until they love for their brother what they love for themselves.”

The importance of this is even greater in a marital relationship.

And Allah knows best

Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari

Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK

www.daruliftaa.org

[Astral]

What constitutes a valid reason?

Muslims are of so many types... I know of some traditional Muslim couples where the husband drinks all day, and the woman doesnt want to sleep with him because he's a drunk.. he's a turn off to her and smells awful. Is that a valid reason?

Anyway back to topic of slavery....

[afroz]

YC, on Jul 24 2005, 01:00 AM, said:

Well, if I may, I would debate that, Sidi.

Given that one of the hadith refering to `azl explains that the sahabi desired to practice this so that the captive women could be sold for a greater price. (Although this is not expressly stated in all versions, it is infered as a possible reason, especially when one takes into account the concluding advice from the prophet(pbuh))

This sounds like a 'spoil' to me.

Ill get the hadith in the next 15 mins insha'Allah.

I have read the Hadeeth you have posted, YC, thank you bro.

But I am not sure what the point of the Hadeeth you have quoted, is. I am not saying that a man is not allowed to have sex with the woman they have in custody at all; that would be going against the Sunnah of the Prophet.

Or are you saying that the Hadeeth somehow alludes to the fact that the women are not taken into custody due to their safety (which is what I breifly suggested above)? Are you saying they were just taken as "slaves" for the puropose of sexual pleasure??

Please clarify.

Was Salaam
Afroz

[YC]

Not quite.

What I am saying is, they are 'spoils' of war in that:

They can be sold.

They can be 'used'.

Etc.

Maybe safety is one of the concerns, but I dont see it being a paramount one.

JAK.

[YC]

Quote

Such a strange topic.

It was practiced up till 1920's. There just needs to be a khilafah.

[afroz]

YC, on Jul 25 2005, 12:12 AM, said:

Not quite.

What I am saying is, they are 'spoils' of war in that:

They can be sold.

They can be 'used'.

Etc.

Maybe safety is one of the concerns, but I dont see it being a paramount one.

JAK.

Thank you YC.

Are you basing your conclusion that safety was not a paramount concern, and that these women were to be used and sold was the primary of objectives, based on the above Ahadeeth you have quoted above?

Was Salaam
Afroz

[ThUnDa4rOmDoWnUnDa]

Thank you for providing that fatwa from sunnipath Mr Barnabas.

I asked a question which wasn't relevant to the topic and then disappeared Well the reason why i asked that question was to highlight that a man cannot force his wife or slave for sex. This doesn't mean offcourse that he cannot have sex with his slave...but just can't force her. My question was inrelation to a question which my brother YC asked another member. And YC understood what i was alluding to anyways.

I will just leave this discussion for now but before i leave..i want to ask a question while we are on the topic of slavery..4 is the limit on the number of wives a man can have simultaneously, what is the limit on the number of slaves one can have simultaneously? anyone?

[YC]

I believe the correct term is:

As many as his heart desires. Thanks Thunda! Thatll get the ladies happy

Yeah, Sidi I think its clear the main issue here was how much money they could get for them after using them.

Safety isnt mentioned at all.

Can you explain to me how it is?

[afroz]

Oh boy.

Bro, between the feet being Awrah, the HT, the latest 60 minutes frenzy, I only pray to Allah that He Wills time for me to write detailed responses back. Hence, I apologise. some of these topics are a study of weeks on its own, and so summing it down to a few words is very difficult if not impossible.

Let me tackle one thing at a time, and then Isha Allah return to this thread, if Allah Wills, for me to write up on why I said that safety was in fact of paramount issue.

Sorry, bro- please do forgive me for the delay.

Was Salaam
Afroz

[YC]

No problem, ukhi.


Seems there is a lot of ignorance out there to fix. And Im not that perturbed by mine.

[Astral]

Assalamu'alaykum,

i realise that a man cannot force the slave to have sex with him - that would be rape. But that is not the point that was concerning me.

A prostitute is not forced to have sex either, it's her choice.

A slave girl might be different in that she doesn't get paid for it, but gets fed and clothed.

However, how does this all fit in with the issue of a girl having a wali' so that her consummation with a man can be approved?

Why does a free girl require a wali and a mahr, whereas a slave girl simply has to consent? And after all that business, say the slave girl is freed, she is no longer chaste - then what? Is she a widow? Is her status lessened? You might say freeing a slave is a good deed, but how good is it if you free her after you have done it with her?

Look, I have read numerous hadiths where the sahaba have had slave girls - what I want to know is whether the prophet s.a.w had any? My research has come up with zero - but I would like to know if he had any? Because it's not the sunnah of the sahaba we should follow but the sunnah of the prophet, right?

And when we do talk about these hadiths, in what time period did it happen? Did it happen pre-islam, when it was still very new, or after Islam was established?

[YC]

Prophet (asws) had three:

Rayhana, a Jewish woman.

Maryam, a Coptic that he later married.

and I cant remember the other...sorry ukhti.

[Jimmy]

What do you all think of this article, is it truthfull or false ?

http://unicorn.phoen...b.net/women.htm

[Sam]

Jimmy, on Jul 26 2005, 11:12 AM, said:

What do you all think of this article, is it truthfull or false ?

http://unicorn.phoen...b.net/women.htm

Extremely false, inaccurate, and offensive to our religion.

[ocean]

YC, on Jul 25 2005, 03:14 AM, said:

Prophet (asws) had three:

Rayhana, a Jewish woman.

Maryam, a Coptic that he later married.

and I cant remember the other...sorry ukhti.

this is new to me. And they were...? ... Slaves only?

[Student]

This is a topic that is not going to affect any of us, unless it's for academic study, in the case that we are questioned about it by a non-muslim or the like.

Slave girls came about for many different reasons... sometimes it was to pay a debt, spoils of war, being born into slavery, and many other reasons...

It is very different to marriage, and very different to fornication.

At the end of the day, i really cant be bothered to muster enough energy to write a detailed response..... mainly because there are too many "why's" being thrown about....

To make things simpler.... ask a sheikh.

Wa Salams