[Abu Ali]

http://www.smh.com.a...1253889168.html

Detainees who find Christ may be allowed to stay
By Mike Seccombe and Linda Morris
March 21, 2005

Thirty of Australia's longest-term immigration detainees are having their cases reviewed and could be freed because they have converted to Christianity since arriving.

The Federal Government has made the move quietly as it searches for a face-saving way to soften its policy on failed asylum seekers who have been in custody for more than three years, and cannot be repatriated to their countries of origin.

It follows strong lobbying efforts by several Government backbenchers, churches and the powerful Family First party for the Government to relax its refugee policy for Christian converts.

It also follows the case of one convert, deported from Baxter detention centre last October within a week after the election, and promptly interrogated in Iran for 48 hours before being charged with leaving the country illegally.

The case was taken up by Family First, whose spokeswoman, Andrea Mason, described the action as "repugnant". The Government is keen to build bridges with Family First, which controls one vital vote in the Senate, where the Government has a majority of a single vote.

Advertisement
AdvertisementPreviously, the Immigration Department has viewed conversions to Christianity with suspicion. But yesterday a spokesman for the Immigration Minister, Amanda Vanstone, confirmed the only reason for reconsidering the 30 cases was their new religion.

"All these people had exhausted the [assessment and appeals] process and failed. Once you have exhausted the process and failed, you're over. You've had your go and that's it," he said.

"To apply again onshore, the minister has to make a decision under section 48 of the act to lift the bar. That's what has happened in this case; the bar was lifted about two weeks ago."

Asked what had changed in the detainees' circumstances to warrant such reconsideration, he said: "Just that they brought new information that they've converted to Christianity and that they want their claim - that they may be persecuted if returned - to be examined."

He said all 30 were "all unauthorised boat arrivals", mostly from Iran and a few from Iraq, who had been in detention for more than three years. They include Peter Qasim, a Kashmiri whom India will not take back, and who is in his seventh year of detention.

Cabinet is considering whether to release about 120 inmates who have been detained for more than three years. These are asylum seekers whose claims have been rejected, but who cannot be returned to their home countries for a variety of reasons.

Sources yesterday suggested this could be done either by devising a new form of temporary visa, or by the more lenient use of ministerial discretion. The reconsideration of religious conversion claims appears to be a move in the latter direction.

In the case of Iranians, who make up the bulk of long-term detainees, religion becomes an issue because the theocratic government there makes renouncing Islam a crime.

The president of the Uniting Church, the Reverend Dean Drayton, has supported the applications of about 50 Iranian Christians, most of whom have converted while in detention.

In the past month, he said, the Government seemed to be "far more open to requests" for the applications to be reconsidered. "I don't think there has been a change of policy but the minister has the power to intervene and provide a reassessment of cases and I think the minister's been doing that."

The Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jensen, has recently intervened in the case of Amir Mesrinejad, a refugee from Iran who converted to Christianity while in detention. The Sydney Anglican Diocese has offered Mr Mesrinejad work, while its social social issues committee issued an urgent briefing paper last week condemning the decision of Senator Vanstone's office to refuse Mr Mesrinejad a protection visa and urging a letter-writing campaign.

The committee said the Government seemed intent on reducing the provisions of the United Nations Convention on Refugees, to which Australia is a signatory, to exclude religious persecution. "It is simply unbelievable that Australia could consider sending Amir back to Iran, where apostates from Islam face the death penalty by law," it said. "His conversion to Christianity is public knowledge, which serves only to heighten the danger he would face."

[sodapop]

This is actually quite common. I saw a number of cases during my time working with asylum seekers, where Muslims argued that they had converted to Christianity or that they had shown interest in other religions, and as a result could not return to their homeland. Whether they truly renounced their religion, Allah knows best. But many Christians are ready to assist these converts in a heartbeat. It truly was heartbreaking to see.

[arabianprince]

Hay pass me the pepsi,

I agree with ya Sodapop its heartbreaking

[irfyte]

assalamu alaykum.

i know of a shonky pakistani migration agent who advised his pakistani clients to convert either to christianity or ahmadiyya. soon they'll be converting to judaism.

but can we really blame them? after all, groups like the uniting church are doing more for asylum seekers than AFIC or our three pizza councils in NSW. when was the last time you saw AFIC divert some of its millions to help asylum seekers or lobby for their release?

but with the number of muslim groups grabbing 'living in harmony' grants of the DIMIA, you can hardly expect them to bite the hand that feeds them!

ma salama

[rmus]

The real question that we should be hounding the government over is:

Are there any detainees who had been refused refugee status who are being torture or executed after deportation?

[irfyte]

assalamu alaykum.

good question, rmus. apparently there is one documented case of a detainee being returned to his country before being executed.

ma salama

[Gforce]

Asylum seekers to be released
By Saffron Howden
March 22, 2005

A SELECT few asylum seekers may soon be released, Prime Minister John Howard said today, foreshadowing an announcement by Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone tomorrow.

Mr Howard said a meeting of cabinet in Canberra had considered the plight of some detainees who could not immediately be returned to their home countries for practical reasons.

“While that situation continues, it's not reasonable that he or she continues to be in detention," he said.

“The desire is that that person be let out into the community on the understanding that when the impracticability about the person's return has been removed then that person will be returned to the country from whence he came."

His comments follow two days of intense speculation over Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone's decision to review the cases of some Iraqi and Iranian detainees who converted to Christianity.


Muslim groups, Labor, and Family First were outraged by the decision and argued it could spark a string of copycat Christian conversions.

Mr Howard said releasing a small number of people did not represent a change of its hardline policy on immigration or mandatory detention.

“We have no intention of altering the policy ... of mandatory detention. That policy has worked extremely well," he said.

Amnesty International has renewed its calls for the end of mandatory detention, which it says is a flagrant breach of human rights.

“Piecemeal releases from detention or temporary visa arrangements are not good enough," Amnesty Australia's refugee coordinator Graham Thom said in a statement.

“What is needed is a comprehensive and lasting change so that cases such as that if Peter Qasim - who has been incarcerated for more than six years - can never happen again,'' he said.

Mr Qasim, a Kashmiri national, has been locked up for almost seven years in various immigration detention facilities across Australia.

He has been refused visas in Australia but cannot be returned to India because the government does not recognise his nationality, in effect making him a stateless person.

Senator Vanstone is expected to make a formal announcement about the release of detainees some time tomorrow.

src

This post has been edited by Gforce: 23 March 2005 - 10:33 AM

[BilalB]

That pees me off, i know someone who had to say jesus is the son of god just to go into a private christian school. the hadith says we should prefer to be thrown into fire then renounce our religion.

[Sam]

the_bilal, on Mar 23 2005, 11:50 AM, said:

That pees me off, i know someone who had to say jesus is the son of god just to go into a private christian school. the hadith says we should prefer to be thrown into fire then renounce our religion.

While I agree, there must be a distinction made between actually renouncing your faith, or just faking it for some gain whilst still believing to be a Muslim by heart. Alhamdulillah we are not in either position.

BTW, my brother had a hard time getting his daughter into a Catholic school - and he's a Catholic! I have heard that a lot of non-Christians are also baptising their kids in a Catholic church, just so they can send their kids to a private Catholic school, and the church is much more questioning about the motives when someone wishes to baptise their kids.

salaams
sam

[insubmission]

LA HOWLA WALA QUWATA ILLA BILLAH

These people are sooo despirate to leave the muslim lands... It truely puzzles me. Is it really that bad over there??

The strange thing is this .. I am despirate to leave here and live a islamic lifestlye in a muslim country... just to safe guard my islam and ultimatly safe gaurd my afterlife...

yet these people are willing to sacrifice theirf afterlife.... for a few years of wealth and freedom (SO THEY THINK.. .BUT WE KNOW THAT IS NOT THE CASE)... My Allah save us from such sickness of the heart, that causes some of us to sell our afterlife for the glitter of a western lifestyle. My Allah make our love of this religion stronger, and make us steadfast in seeking the way of his prophet where ever we are.


Fe amman Allah

[rmus]

Out of curiousity, do you know which school it was ?

the_bilal, on Mar 23 2005, 10:50 AM, said:

That pees me off, i know someone who had to say jesus is the son of god just to go into a private christian school. the hadith says we should prefer to be thrown into fire then renounce our religion.

[insubmission]

ASalaamu alaykum

Actualy maybe I've been too harsh in my previous msg.

This story really made me feel so terrible. Maybe we muslims in this country really have to do more so that they don't get put in the position where they see that as a way out.

I mean I still don't understand how they are so attracted by this western life. But we shouldn't forget that its from actually being here that we see that the glitter of this way of life has nothing to offer and we go towards Islam. Probably if they weren't locked up they would understand it too. It might be that they haven't had a chance to appreciate the differences.

Obviously it depends a lot on why they were running away too. Maybe some were running away from Islam anyway and whether they convert to christianity or consumerism, they were converted anyway. But no doubt they are a trial for us so that we have to do what we can to help them keep their emaan and remind them that Islam is a step forward from christianity and not a step back. I can just imagine those missionaries up there whispering in their ears. Maybe saying that their own muslim brothers have abandoned them so why not come to us.

Does anyone know if we muslims make visits to see them?

I would like to

wasalaam

[Sam]

Quote

The strange thing is this .. I am despirate to leave here and live a islamic lifestlye in a muslim country... just to safe guard my islam and ultimatly safe gaurd my afterlife...

So you believe all the Muslims living in Australia are doomed to hellfire? Why not just try living an islamic lifestyle here in Australia?

[sodapop]

insubmission, on Mar 23 2005, 01:21 PM, said:

These people are sooo despirate to leave the muslim lands... It truely puzzles me. Is it really that bad over there??

For many, yes it is. Just because a country is populated in the majority by Muslims does not make it Islamic, and many, nay most, of these people are not trying to escape their religion, but persecution.

Quote

yet these people are willing to sacrifice theirf afterlife.... for a few years of wealth and freedom (SO THEY THINK.. .BUT WE KNOW THAT IS NOT THE CASE)...

I totally disagree with this. Many of these asylum seekers do not come here and suddenly embrace a Western lifestyle and become wealthy, deserting their religion. I said it is heartbreaking to see Muslims renounce their faith (sincerely or insincerely), but as Irfyte pointed out, they are not receiving the same amount of support from Muslim organisations as they are from non-Muslim organisations.

Quote

My Allah save us from such sickness of the heart, that causes some of us to sell our afterlife for the glitter of a western lifestyle.

It is just not as simple as that. Have a look at the grounds on which someone may claim that they are entitled to refugee status. Then consider why someone would jump on a leaky boat, with only their immediate family and few possessions to go somewhere that they THINK promises them a BETTER life. Not a non-Islamic one. Just a better one.

I just can't believe how anti-Western so many Muslims are, but they are so happy to enjoy the freedoms and comfort provided to them in a Western society. Personally, I think there are so many more Muslims in Australia who know their deen better than many Muslims in so-called Muslim countries. Let us not be so judgmental of why people would come to a Western country. If your life was so good in your homeland, why would you bother?

This post has been edited by sodapop: 23 March 2005 - 12:37 PM

[insubmission]

Sam, on Mar 23 2005, 12:33 PM, said:

So you believe all the Muslims living in Australia are doomed to hellfire? Why not just try living an islamic lifestyle here in Australia?

Don't put words in my mouth ... I didn't say that at all.

I said that it is easier to safe guard your emaan by living in a muslim country surrounded by muslims. Even if the muslims in muslim countries stray.. they don't stray as much as they do here.

There is less fear of outright athiasm, zena, or drinking, or homosexuality, or riba, or eating non halal food etc etc etc. Purely because over centuries it has become socially unacceptable. Although this is the wrong reason to do the right thing, it's still a safe guard, for you and your childeren. Or at least makes it easier for you and them to say within the 'ballpark' of islam.

[BilalB]

rmus, on Mar 23 2005, 12:27 PM, said:

Out of curiousity, do you know which school it was ?

It's here in the ACT can't remember what it's called sorry.

[Sam]

Assalamualaikum brother in Islam,

insubmission, on Mar 23 2005, 01:41 PM, said:

I said that it is easier to safe guard your emaan by living in a muslim country surrounded by muslims. Even if the muslims in muslim countries stray.. they don't stray as much as they do here.

When I lived in a muslim country, my iman was lower than when I was living in Australia, despite the mass of muslims, mosques on every corner, availability of halal food, etc... I thought I would enjoy it more - in practice I found the opposite - I realised that dunya is dunya wherever you live, and when I saw muslims stray, even a little, it really affected me much more. Even where I worked, we had one whole floor dedicated as a musallah, and there were still a lot of muslims that didn't pray. What does that tell you?

insubmission, on Mar 23 2005, 01:41 PM, said:

There is less fear of outright athiasm, zena, or drinking, or homosexuality, or riba, or eating non halal food etc etc etc.  Purely because over centuries it has become socially unacceptable. Although this is the wrong reason to do the right thing, it's still a safe guard, for you and your childeren.  Or at least makes it easier for you and them to say within the 'ballpark' of islam.

I fear those things equally whether I'm living here or in a muslim country. Whether the rest of society finds it acceptable or not is of little consequence to me and my beliefs, and the way I choose to practice. Nobody is forcing me here to become an athiest, drink, sodomise, or take riba (well no more than in muslim countries, good luck finding one that doesn't use the western banking system). I acknowledge that it's easier to get Halal food in such places, but most of the problems we have here are of our own making. There is no law that says you need to own a TV. There is no law that insists that we need to buy pornography. If I thought for a second that I had to remove myself from such things to safeguard myself, then I would start to wonder what attraction I held for such things in the first place. Therefore I'm happy staying right here, and putting effort into sharing the deen of Islam for the non-muslims in our society, so that they may also taste the beauty of it and we may all improve society together.

However if you still choose to go, may Allah make it easy for you. And may He protect us all from straying from the straight path.

salaams
sam

[insubmission]

sodapop, on Mar 23 2005, 12:36 PM, said:

I totally disagree with this. Many of these asylum seekers do not come here and suddenly embrace a Western lifestyle and become wealthy, deserting their religion. I said it is heartbreaking to see Muslims renounce their faith (sincerely or insincerely), but as Irfyte pointed out, they are not receiving the same amount of support from Muslim organisations as they are from non-Muslim organisations.
It is just not as simple as that. Have a look at the grounds on which someone may claim that they are entitled to refugee status. Then consider why someone would jump on a leaky boat, with only their immediate family and few possessions to go somewhere that they THINK promises them a BETTER life. Not a non-Islamic one. Just a better one.

I know that some of these people are just seeking a better life. I was there in woomara. I spoke to them, i translated for them. When I was in melbourne i used to vist one of them often. So, i think that i know them, and I know why some of them come here.

I have a lot of sympathy for them.. don't get me wrong. Some of them don't know anybetter. This sympathy is purely becuase they are here now... and are being treated inhumanely by the authoraties... we must help them. But i question the motives of some. They come seeking a better life, but I cant help but think that perhaps there is a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side". They come to australia seeking greener pastures, but find that the pastures are not so green. I have met many of them, Young, full of energy and adventure, could have been anything they want to be. They come seeking the oppurtunities given to us here, but perhaps they just didn't see the oppurtunities they had back there. Even if it was as small as hearding the sheep or whatever it is their poor parents do.

Ofcourse you'll argue that this is not true for all of them. And i agree with you. But you cant say that not even some of what I am saying is true.

sodapop, on Mar 23 2005, 12:36 PM, said:

I just can't believe how anti-Western so many Muslims are, but they are so happy to enjoy the freedoms and comfort provided to them in a Western society. Personally, I think there are so many more Muslims in Australia who know their deen better than many Muslims in so-called Muslim countries.

You cant be serious.

You mean to tell me, that the very small percentage of the less than one million muslims in australia who practice their islam (in total say 50,000) , is larger than the number of practicing muslims in muslim countries (1,000,000,000). Even if it is a small percentage that actually practice and know their religion. It would be still much greater.

dont fool your self.

[sodapop]

insubmission, on Mar 23 2005, 02:42 PM, said:

They come seeking the oppurtunities given to us here, but perhaps they just didn't see the oppurtunities they had back there. Even if it was as small as hearding the sheep or whatever it is their poor parents do. 

Ofcourse you'll argue that this is not true for all of them. And i agree with you. But you cant say that not even some of what I am saying is true.
You cant be serious.

I am talking about persecution of minorities, and in fact, many Muslims who are not even able to practise their religion properly. Like I said, consider the reasons why people genuinely seek asylum.

On your other point, maybe someone does not want to be a goat-herder, in which case they may still attempt to find a better life (just not as an asylum seeker). This does not make them a bad person, and you seem to suggest earlier that they are turning away from their religion, and now it is that they are rejecting the meagre opportunities they have in their homelands. Do these tie in? In any case, I am not here to argue. I, too, have been to a detention centre, and I have work experience in this area, so, yes, I am quite serious.

Quote

You mean to tell me, that the very small percentage of the less than one million muslims in australia who practice their islam (in total say 50,000) , is larger than the number of practicing muslims in muslim countries (1,000,000,000). Even if it is a small percentage that actually practice and know their religion. It would be still much greater.

dont fool your self.

I think you can grasp the essence of my point - figuratively speaking, I find that many Muslims here know their religion better than so many Muslims in other countries. I was recently in the Middle East and it never ceases to amaze me how culturally immersed so many are.

So, I don't think I'm fooling myself, but thanks for the warning.

This post has been edited by sodapop: 23 March 2005 - 02:13 PM

[insubmission]

sodapop, on Mar 23 2005, 01:59 PM, said:

I am talking about persecution of minorities, and in fact, many Muslims who are not even able to practise their religion properly. Like I said, consider the reasons why people genuinely seek asylum.

Like i said... I agree with you. For those of them who are genuinely seeking asylum, because of persecution, Then what they are doing is no short of jihad ... and this is they must be commended for. May Allah bless them and give them paradise.

sodapop, on Mar 23 2005, 01:59 PM, said:

On your other point, maybe someone does not want to be a goat-herder, in which case they may still attempt to find a better life (just not as an asylum seeker). This does not make them a bad person, and you seem to suggest earlier that they are turning away from their  religion, and now it is that they are rejecting the meagre opportunities they have in their homelands.

You know, I am a sucessful engineer alhamdulillah, working for one of the biggest companies in the world. But there is a part of me that would hapily exchange that for a life as a goat-herder (after all - the best people on earth - the prophets - were goat herders !). So i don't think it's 'meager', it just doesn't have the glitter of city lights, fast cars, pocket pc, and a mobile phone!

Just to clarify, Muslims who emgrate are of five types of people:

1. A Muslim who is forced by his circumstances to emigrate, e.g. he is persecuted in his country or imprisoned, or his property is confiscated etc., without his having committed any crime, and he sees no way out for himself other than to emigrate to a foreign country, then he would be permitted to do so in such a case without any abhorrence whatsoever as long as he resolves to protect his faith, and keep himself away from the widespread evil found there.

2. Similarly, if a Muslim is forced to emigrate due to his financial situation, i.e. he cannot find the necessary means of subsistence despite extensive effort and he sees no alternative other than emigration to a non-Muslim country, then he is permitted to emigrate subject to the above conditions. Earning a livelihood through permissible means is also a duty for a Muslim, after his other fard duties, and the Shariah has not specified a certain place for it. Allah says:

"He is the one who has made the earth manageable for you. So traverse you through its tracts, and enjoy of the sustenance that He furnishes; and unto Him is the resurrection. [Al-Mulk 67:15]

3. If a Muslim adopts the nationality of a non-Muslim country for the purpose of calling its people towards Islam, or to convey Islamic laws to the Muslims residing there, and to encourage them to stay firm on their faith, then this is not only permissible, but also a source of reward. Many of the Sahabah and Tabi'een settled in distant Kuffar lands for this very purpose, and this action of theirs is counted amongst their virtues and points of merit.

4. If a person has enough means of livelihood available to him in his native country for him to be able to live according to the (average) standard of his people, but he emigrates in order to raise his standard of living and live a life of luxury and comfort, then emigration for such a purpose has at least some degree of karaha (abhorrence) in it, because such a person is throwing himself into a storm of evil, and endangering his faith and moral character without there being any necessity for it. Experience shows that the people who settle in non-Muslim countries for luxury and comfort find their religious restraint diminishing in the face of many temptations of evil, and if they don't, their kids do. In the markets I see so many teenage muslim girls, whose mother's wear the hijab but they do not.

5. Finally, if a person adopts a non-Muslim nationality solely for the purpose of increasing his standing in society, and as a matter of pride, or in preference to a Muslim nationality, or in imitation of the Kuffar then all such actions are Haram without exception.
The proof:
The Noble Qur'an: Al-Mumtahinah 60:1-9, 13
1. O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists, etc.) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism, this Qur'ân, and Muhammad ), and have driven out the Messenger (Muhammad ) and yourselves (from your homeland) because you believe in Allâh your Lord! If you have come forth to strive in My Cause and to seek My Good Pleasure, (then take not these disbelievers and polytheists, etc., as your friends). You show friendship to them in secret, while I am All-Aware of what you conceal and what you reveal. And whosoever of you (Muslims) does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray, (away) from the Straight Path.

2. Should they gain the upper hand over you, they would behave to you as enemies, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you with evil, and they desire that you should disbelieve.

3. Neither your relatives nor your children will benefit you on the Day of Resurrection (against Allâh). He will judge between you. And Allâh is the All-Seer of what you do.

4. Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrâhim (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allâh, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever, until you believe in Allâh Alone," except the saying of Ibrâhim (Abraham) to his father: "Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from Allâh) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allâh ." Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return,

5. "Our Lord! Make us not a trial for the disbelievers, and forgive us, Our Lord! Verily, You, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."

6. Certainly, there has been in them an excellent example for you to follow, for those who look forward to (the Meeting with) Allâh (for the reward from Him) and the Last Day. And whosoever turn away, then verily, Allâh is Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all Praise.

7. Perhaps Allâh will make friendship between you and those whom you hold as enemies. And Allâh has power (over all things), and Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

8. Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.

9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allâh).

13. O you who believe! Take not as friends the people who incurred the Wrath of Allâh (i.e. the Jews). Surely, they have been in despair to receive any good in the Hereafter, just as the disbelievers have been in despair about those (buried) in graves (that they will not be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection).

The Noble Qur'an: Al-Ma'idah 5:51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as 'Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers etc.), they are but 'Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as 'Auliya' then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust)."

The Noble Qur'an: Al-Maidah 5:57-58
"O you who believe! do not take for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand." (Al-Maidah 5:57-58)

The Noble Qur'an: An-Nisa 4:139
Those who take disbelievers for 'Auliya' (protectors or helpers or friends) instead of believers, do they seek honour, power and glory with them? Verily, then to Allah belongs all honour, power and glory.

The Noble Qur'an: An-Nisa 4:144
O you who believe! Take not for 'Auliya' (protectors or helpers or friends) disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?

sodapop, on Mar 23 2005, 01:59 PM, said:

I think you can grasp the essence of my point - figuratively speaking, I find that many Muslims here know their religion better than so many Muslims in other countries. I was recently in the Middle East and it never ceases to amaze me how culturally immersed so many are.

So, I don't think I'm fooling myself, but thanks for the warning.

I think that you must also be intellegent enough to grasp the essence of my point - I am sure that you'll find more muslims in muslim countries who know their religion. In fact more scholars, and more pious people, more students of islam, more people who have memorised the quraan etc etc. I am not saying the muslims here don't know their religion, but there are more of those who know their religion in the middle east and in asia and north africa ... I can name sooo many scholars, who's books i'm sure fill your islamic library, who live in those countries. not here. They have dedicated their lives to study islam. Studying it for years and years to the most intricate detail. how can you just make them irrelavent just like that!

wasalaam

[sodapop]

insubmission, on Mar 23 2005, 09:04 PM, said:

You know, I am a sucessful engineer alhamdulillah, working for one of the biggest companies in the world. But there is a part of me that would hapily exchange that for a life as a goat-herder (after all - the best people on earth - the prophets - were goat herders !). So i don't think it's 'meager', it just doesn't have the glitter of city lights, fast cars, pocket pc, and a mobile phone!

Yes, but not everyone is built like you and they would like to pursue other opportunities - at a basic level, there is nothing unIslamic about that. Also, you are saying the above from the perspective of someone who experiences a successful career with the "glitter" you do not care for, so I think unless you actually have no choice but to live the life of one of those "goat herders", you shouldn't be so judgmental.

In any case, you are entitled to your opinion, and me my own, so let us just leave it at that, shall we?

Quote

I think that you must also be intellegent enough to grasp the essence of my point I am sure that you'll find more muslims in muslim countries who know their religion.

But can you appreciate what I was trying to say? That these "Islamic lands" that you speak of are very much like the "Western" societies? Although I appreciate your point from a demographic point of view, my point, which seems to be lost on you, is that in Australia at least, I feel there are some purer intepretations of Islam because many here are not as weighed down by culture. NOW, at no point did I dismiss the knowledge of scholars, students, laymen, professionals, housewives, five year olds, or anyone else for that matter who is Muslim in a so-called Muslim country. So, in terms of there being "more" of them - well, I can't change populations, but I can tell you that you can step into many Middle Eastern countries (and that's just the Middle East) and you will see just how "Westernised" chunks of the population are. Not that I wish to simplify the lifestyle by categorising it as "Western" - after all, something can be haram, and not be related to/based on Western lifestyle. I can give so many examples, but I would rather not hijack this thread with this.

Let us please not suggest that in order to be a good Muslim you need to reside in a country populated by Muslims. While it is beautiful to hear the adhan, while you see more women in hijab, while the food is generally halal, none of this guarantees an easier path to pleasing Allah SWT. And in fact, I have spoken to so many overseas who seem to suggest a better state of iman just because they live in a country with a majority Muslim population. Knowledge is one thing, practice is another. Neither is enough completely on its own I feel.

Further, can we not invoke the fire and brimstone passion just because we find something not to our liking?

Insubmission, I appreciate what you have to say, so do not be offended. We are here to discuss, not simply pat each other on the back figuratively speaking.

Salam

[rmus]

do you have any details ? i couldn't find anything with google.

irfyte, on Mar 22 2005, 11:15 PM, said:

apparently there is one documented case of a detainee being returned to his country before being executed.

[Sam]

From memory it is an Iranian who was returned and was put prison to await execution by stoning. I'm not sure if it's already occurred or not.

There was also the case of the eight-months' pregnant woman who was deported back to China and forced by China's one child per family policy to undergo an abortion; you could just about consider that an execution of sorts.

Sorry don't have any references... just my (sometimes dodgy) memory.

salaams
sam

[Sam]

Sober reading...

[Mowlana Vector]

AA


Quote

yet these people are willing to sacrifice theirf afterlife.... for a few years of wealth and freedom (SO THEY THINK.. .BUT WE KNOW THAT IS NOT THE CASE)...

and


Quote

I mean I still don't understand how they are so attracted by this western life. But we shouldn't forget that its from actually being here that we see that the glitter of this way of life has nothing to offer and we go towards Islam. Probably if they weren't locked up they would understand it too. It might be that they haven't had a chance to appreciate the differences.

Here we go again ... urrgggghh ...




Quote

These people are sooo despirate to leave the muslim lands... It truely puzzles me. Is it really that bad over there??



Then,


Quote

I know that some of these people are just seeking a better life. I was there in woomara. I spoke to them, i translated for them. When I was in melbourne i used to vist one of them often. So, i think that i know them, and I know why some of them come here.

kind of confusing ...
Oh well, I guess, u answered your own question there Bro



Quote

This story really made me feel so terrible. Maybe we muslims in this country really have to do more so that they don't get put in the position where they see that as a way out.

Yes Great Idea Thank U, this is (more) constructive, Insha'Allahkhair




Quote

Nobody is forcing me here to become an athiest, drink, sodomise, or take riba (well no more than in muslim countries, good luck finding one that doesn't use the western banking system). ... I'm happy staying right here, and putting effort into sharing the deen of Islam for the non-muslims in our society, so that they may also taste the beauty of it and we may all improve society together.




Quote

Let us not be so judgmental of why people would come to a Western country. If your life was so good in your homeland, why would you bother?

Sam and Sodapop, Jazaks for the excellent posts

W'salaam

[Mowlana Vector]

rmus, on Mar 24 2005, 07:44 AM, said:

do you have any details ? i couldn't find anything with google.


Quote
(irfyte @ Mar 22 2005, 11:15 PM)
apparently there is one documented case of a detainee being returned to his country before being executed.





FYI: Some More Sober Reading

Deportation and Coerced "Voluntary" Returns

Deportation/Removal of Asylum Seekers From Australia

Senate Supports Mercy Plea From Iranian Refugees

International Refugee News

Australia and Refugees, 1901 - 2002: From White Australia to Port Hedland

Refugee Stories

Anna's Story

Refugee Australia: National Directory

UNSW: Centre For Refugee Research Reports

A Just Australia: Research & Papers

Vanstone's Refugee Wedging

Myth-101:"There Are No Refugees In Australian Detention Centres"

Facts & Myths About Asylum Seekers and Refugees

FAQs & Stats on Asylum Seekers and Refugees